CIDRAP Podcast on reopening schools this fall

JohnInCarolina

We've had a few discussions around this topic in the Friday night Zoom sessions, so I thought I'd share a recent podcast on the topic that I found helpful.  It's out of the center that Michael Osterholm runs at the University of Minnesota.  Here's a link:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/episode-16

I know that this whole topic has become politicized, but my own view is that it shouldn't be.  Osterholm's view is deliberately apolitical.  The podcast will no doubt disappoint some in the sense that there are no easy answers on this subject, and Osterholm makes that clear.  

lousubcap

Thanks for the link.  Yes, I actually had it playing (speakers on) while doing other things.  Draw any conclusions you wish!
Dr Osterholm is a fairly regular guest on Meet The Press and made an appearance on today's broadcast.  

SciAggie

Thanks thanks for the link. I listened while making kombucha this morning. It sounds as if we are going to have a grand health experiment this fall. Do you think a lot of Master’s and PhD papers will be written on this topic, lol?

I at least appreciate his approach to the discussion. I wish that were the case with more people. I understand that we all make decisions based on emotions at some level - no matter how intellectual we think we are being. We do have to look at what we have learned and as he said be as safe as possible. 

Dondgc

How do we not open schools this fall?
How do we even consider opening schools this fall?

I’m glad it’s not my decision as both of those thoughts have equal prominence in my head...I have no answers. Only questions. Which is pretty much how I feel about everything Covid-related. 

Lit

If my children were public school age there is no way they would be going back. They go to a montessori school right now where all 4 classrooms will have their own entrance and no moving from room to room. I still think everything will be shut down again by November or so but I do want my children to get as much social interaction as they can.

fishlessman

things are going to get interesting this fall, an older neighbor next door is a professor at zoomass. he told me he may not even be allowed on campus, not sure how thats going to fly with the union

YukonRon

It starts with leadership. The federal government must become intimately involved in the process, and the fund the school systems to be able to control the virus, while providing a quality education.

Apolitical or whatever, based on the current stance offered thus far, I am uncomfortable thinking our children will be receiving the best effort for remaining healthy while receiving that education.

It is ridiculous to think a one plan will fit all. It is easily as insane to think that masks, or social distancing of the students will make everything OK.

The burden placed upon our teachers and children is so unfair. It is so non believable, that we in the USA need to subject our children to live shooter drills for survival in schools, and now depend upon them to go back to school to free up their parents for labor to keep the economy going, to those of other wealthy countries, around the world.

He was right. When these children grow up, should they survive, they are going to look back and ask, what were our parents and grandparents thinking?

fishlessman

college parties, drinking, and hooking up...what could go wrong

StillH2OEgger

I'm not worried. Pretty sure Betsy DeVos has it covered.

ColbyLang

My money on all of the kids in our private school system home by Oct 1 for continued distance learning. One teacher or student will contract the virus and they’ll shut it all down.

it’s unfortunate because while I know what I “taught” my son for 4.5 months, I know I didn’t get my money’s worth!!

caliking

ColbyLang said:

My money on all of the kids in our private school system home by Oct 1 for continued distance learning. One teacher or student will contract the virus and they’ll shut it all down.

it’s unfortunate because while I know what I “taught” my son for 4.5 months, I know I didn’t get my money’s worth!!

I think schools will try some kind of containment strategy, i.e. if a teacher or student tests positive, that section/class will stay at home for X days and then return. 

For whatever reasons, daycares have skirted this burning question/issue about staying open. They’re similar to schools. Caliprince hasn’t been to his since March, but its been open the whole time, except for 1 week. 

Are daycares contributing to the spread of COVID in TX? Maybe. Current data has not demonstrated that (yet), but that could change. 

ColbyLang

caliking said:

ColbyLang said:

My money on all of the kids in our private school system home by Oct 1 for continued distance learning. One teacher or student will contract the virus and they’ll shut it all down.

it’s unfortunate because while I know what I “taught” my son for 4.5 months, I know I didn’t get my money’s worth!!

I think schools will try some kind of containment strategy, i.e. if a teacher or student tests positive, that section/class will stay at home for X days and then return. 

For whatever reasons, daycares have skirted this burning question/issue about staying open. They’re similar to schools. Caliprince hasn’t been to his since March, but its been open the whole time, except for 1 week. 

Are daycares contributing to the spread of COVID in TX? Maybe. Current data has not demonstrated that (yet), but that could change. 

My 5 and 3 year olds just reopened for the summer session. Temp check upon arrival and throughout the day. Static group all day, no shared recess or even multiple groups of kids on playground on same day. 

Private school has a very detailed plan on reopening under phase 2, if we don’t backslide here in Louisiana. These kids need to go back to school. The sanity of mothers and fathers everywhere depend on it!

Gulfcoastguy

My sister runs a preschool, newborn through five years old . She has a waiting list a mile long because of how well her students are educated, fed, and socialized. At the beginning of the plague she closed for two weeks before she was declared an essential business. One of the grandparents met with her and asked her to stay open. She said that both she and her daughter were single, worked as nurses, and had no family to leave the kids with. So far they have had no confirmed cases of Covid despite being located in a fairly high risk county. Many of her students had parents working in the health care industry. They were essential workers, not allowed to take months off. 

fishlessman

looking at the covid map, you guys in the south didnt learn much from the agony we went thru since  the beginning of this, stay home our restaurants  are now open, they are still empty. the rules for bars are they stay closed til theres a cure. daycare is at a neighbors or family. keep things small. colleges opening is going to be crazy, theres just no rules in college that can be enforced

Lit

ColbyLang said:

caliking said:

ColbyLang said:

My money on all of the kids in our private school system home by Oct 1 for continued distance learning. One teacher or student will contract the virus and they’ll shut it all down.

it’s unfortunate because while I know what I “taught” my son for 4.5 months, I know I didn’t get my money’s worth!!

I think schools will try some kind of containment strategy, i.e. if a teacher or student tests positive, that section/class will stay at home for X days and then return. 

For whatever reasons, daycares have skirted this burning question/issue about staying open. They’re similar to schools. Caliprince hasn’t been to his since March, but its been open the whole time, except for 1 week. 

Are daycares contributing to the spread of COVID in TX? Maybe. Current data has not demonstrated that (yet), but that could change. 

My 5 and 3 year olds just reopened for the summer session. Temp check upon arrival and throughout the day. Static group all day, no shared recess or even multiple groups of kids on playground on same day. 

Private school has a very detailed plan on reopening under phase 2, if we don’t backslide here in Louisiana. These kids need to go back to school. The sanity of mothers and fathers everywhere depend on it!

Its funny people are using temperature as a gauge. I'm fairly sure my household has it right now and the highest my temp ever got was 99.5. Neither of my children have gotten over 100 and that was only for the first day or so we are all at 98.6 range now. I still have a cough, headache, and back pain between my shoulder blades that is going on 8 days now but zero temp. My son is bad enough he has had to use a nebulizer the last 2 nights in the middle of the night and his oxygen was down to 93 at one point and no fever at all. If you look online there are many reports of just a mild fever or no fever at all. 

FarmingPhD

YukonRon said:

It starts with leadership. The federal government must become intimately involved in the process, and the fund the school systems to be able to control the virus, while providing a quality education.

Apolitical or whatever, based on the current stance offered thus far, I am uncomfortable thinking our children will be receiving the best effort for remaining healthy while receiving that education.

It is ridiculous to think a one plan will fit all. It is easily as insane to think that masks, or social distancing of the students will make everything OK.

The burden placed upon our teachers and children is so unfair. It is so non believable, that we in the USA need to subject our children to live shooter drills for survival in schools, and now depend upon them to go back to school to free up their parents for labor to keep the economy going, to those of other wealthy countries, around the world.

He was right. When these children grow up, should they survive, they are going to look back and ask, what were our parents and grandparents thinking?

If you don’t want a “one plan fits all” then the less federal involvement the better outside of sharing information about what practices seem to be working and what practices are failing.  

Solutions are going to need to tailored for local needs.  A lot of rural areas, staying home is going to result in kids getting little to no structured education.  Well, they’ll be getting life lessons in work in some places.  

No matter what you do, you are going to be wrong on some level.  My wife is a school teacher and my work continues as we do contract based work, if we don’t deliver, I won’t get paid.  Leaves my wife at home trying to teach a 2nd grader, watch a 2 year old, while running online classes if they have to shut down.  Some of us don’t have options and I don’t want a handout from the government my 5th generation will still be paying off.

ColbyLang

FarmingPhD said:

YukonRon said:

It starts with leadership. The federal government must become intimately involved in the process, and the fund the school systems to be able to control the virus, while providing a quality education.

Apolitical or whatever, based on the current stance offered thus far, I am uncomfortable thinking our children will be receiving the best effort for remaining healthy while receiving that education.

It is ridiculous to think a one plan will fit all. It is easily as insane to think that masks, or social distancing of the students will make everything OK.

The burden placed upon our teachers and children is so unfair. It is so non believable, that we in the USA need to subject our children to live shooter drills for survival in schools, and now depend upon them to go back to school to free up their parents for labor to keep the economy going, to those of other wealthy countries, around the world.

He was right. When these children grow up, should they survive, they are going to look back and ask, what were our parents and grandparents thinking?

If you don’t want a “one plan fits all” then the less federal involvement the better outside of sharing information about what practices seem to be working and what practices are failing.  

Solutions are going to need to tailored for local needs.  A lot of rural areas, staying home is going to result in kids getting little to no structured education.  Well, they’ll be getting life lessons in work in some places.  

No matter what you do, you are going to be wrong on some level.  My wife is a school teacher and my work continues as we do contract based work, if we don’t deliver, I won’t get paid.  Leaves my wife at home trying to teach a 2nd grader, watch a 2 year old, while running online classes if they have to shut down.  Some of us don’t have options and I don’t want a handout from the government my 5th generation will still be paying off.

This is spot on. Custom solutions for each area is a must. I agree completely with the little to no education/learning on most public school levels. 

MIL is a public school teacher. They sent home enrichment packages for each student. Lower income families here have no access to WiFi and the public libraries are closed. She got exactly 2 packages back to grade and every student was passed to the next grade level. 

Legume

Some states have handed mandates to districts to open to in person teaching by certain dates (to get funding) and from what I’ve gathered, some districts are putting temp rather than perm plans in place, expecting this to loosen as the virus doesn’t just disappear.  I can’t imagine anything but a near constant evaluate and adapt model.

YukonRon

It has been decided here in Louisville (Jefferson County), to begin the fall semester on line. Other counties in Kentucky may differ. 

To get back into the classrooms, the virus situation in our city needs to decline significantly. Comparatively speaking, Kentucky has not been as badly affected as the surrounding states, however, much of that is due to the governor's response to the Covid19 pandemic.

Louisville, and Jefferson County, is the hardest hit region of the Commonwealth, by far.

It has just recently started going up, due to those traveling outside and bringing it back home after vacation.

We may be headed back to a lockdown.

It is my hope the Federal government will supply funding as needed for education, and allow the money to be used locally to provide the children a quality education, without mandates, allowing the school systems to decide how to use it in as effective manner as possible.

SamIAm2

Episode 17 - Reopening Schools Part 2 was posted yesterday. A transcript for the episode is not yet available.

SciAggie

What I see locally frustrates me. In my area districts are not large and communities are not experiencing the massive outbreaks like we are seeing in Houston, Austin, and Dallas. The frustration is that people think that means everything is hunky dory and we need to just open schools like nothing is going on. 

Students are being offered a binary choice. Either they are 100% remote or 100% in person. They are also informed that the 100% remote option excludes them from all UIL participation. 

So let’s see - my choice is a remote model that we all learned in the spring is a wreck - OR - in person like nothing ever happened. We know what’s going to happen. Students (who think they are bullet proof) and parents (many of whom believe this is all fake news) will choose face to face. 

The problem though is that if we continue with traditional face to face there will inevitably be issues. We have experienced a paradigm shift - there are new realities that need to be addressed. Instead folks in authority (around here) are using money as a bludgeon to force schools to act like nothing is wrong. 

I can’t understand the reluctance to search for innovative solutions that allow for face to face instruction within the constraints of our emerging health concerns. Schools are more than a brick and mortar structure. They should be an institution that serves to prepare them for success. If we have to innovate and adapt and change so be it. 

I just am stumped at the determination some leaders have to make this an either/or choice. 

stlcharcoal

My kids go back Aug 19 for five days a week.  They changed the check-in / drop-off procedures, lunch, and some other stuff......but overall, most of the school families demanded it be back to normal as possible while abiding by the county's guidelines.  Parents that have a problem with that are welcome to keep their children at home for "online learning".  Teachers that have a problem with that are welcome to find another job.....they will have had six months paid time off at that point to look for one.

Acn

SciAggie said:

What I see locally frustrates me. In my area districts are not large and communities are not experiencing the massive outbreaks like we are seeing in Houston, Austin, and Dallas. The frustration is that people think that means everything is hunky dory and we need to just open schools like nothing is going on. 

Students are being offered a binary choice. Either they are 100% remote or 100% in person. They are also informed that the 100% remote option excludes them from all UIL participation. 

So let’s see - my choice is a remote model that we all learned in the spring is a wreck - OR - in person like nothing ever happened. We know what’s going to happen. Students (who think they are bullet proof) and parents (many of whom believe this is all fake news) will choose face to face. 

The problem though is that if we continue with traditional face to face there will inevitably be issues. We have experienced a paradigm shift - there are new realities that need to be addressed. Instead folks in authority (around here) are using money as a bludgeon to force schools to act like nothing is wrong. 

I can’t understand the reluctance to search for innovative solutions that allow for face to face instruction within the constraints of our emerging health concerns. Schools are more than a brick and mortar structure. They should be an institution that serves to prepare them for success. If we have to innovate and adapt and change so be it. 

I just am stumped at the determination some leaders have to make this an either/or choice. 

I agree with so much of this, it is so sad that the entire country is devolving into black and white thinking on everything.  

The latest plans we’ve heard from our daughter’s school is that lower school (K-4) will be on campus 5 days/week, and Middle (5-8) and Upper (9-12) will alternate, with one on campus and the other doing distance/zoom classes.  They’re not sure how to handle the buses, and lunch/athletics/drama are all going to be adjusted or eliminated.  Temp checks and masks will be required.  We are lucky, chromebooks/home printer and internet were all already required, so last spring when they moved to virtual school It was relatively smooth and they have more time to plan.

SciAggie

@Acn The largest hurdle for working parents is “where do my children go if I go to work?” Kids need supervision because even the “good kids” do stupid stuff. 

The question is really one of square footage. Like in my classroom, I can only accommodate 8 students if we place desks 6’ apart. Alternating A/B days would let me work them through. But where do they go on the “off” day?
I think the solution is simple. Our small community is full of churches with large fellowship halls. There are restaurants with isolated (and empty) dining rooms. Some businesses have large conference rooms that are seldom used. 

During this time, why can’t kids meet there in “pandemic pods?” They would need supervision but there are youth pastors, retired teachers, and others who could volunteer to monitor small groups. Solutions exist if we could just explore them. 

Middle school and elementary students seems to transmit the virus very little. It seems it is the HS students that are the most likely vector. We can figure out how to do this - if we could be allowed to do so. 

alaskanassasin

Lit said:

ColbyLang said:

caliking said:

ColbyLang said:

My money on all of the kids in our private school system home by Oct 1 for continued distance learning. One teacher or student will contract the virus and they’ll shut it all down.

it’s unfortunate because while I know what I “taught” my son for 4.5 months, I know I didn’t get my money’s worth!!

I think schools will try some kind of containment strategy, i.e. if a teacher or student tests positive, that section/class will stay at home for X days and then return. 

For whatever reasons, daycares have skirted this burning question/issue about staying open. They’re similar to schools. Caliprince hasn’t been to his since March, but its been open the whole time, except for 1 week. 

Are daycares contributing to the spread of COVID in TX? Maybe. Current data has not demonstrated that (yet), but that could change. 

My 5 and 3 year olds just reopened for the summer session. Temp check upon arrival and throughout the day. Static group all day, no shared recess or even multiple groups of kids on playground on same day. 

Private school has a very detailed plan on reopening under phase 2, if we don’t backslide here in Louisiana. These kids need to go back to school. The sanity of mothers and fathers everywhere depend on it!

Its funny people are using temperature as a gauge. I'm fairly sure my household has it right now and the highest my temp ever got was 99.5. Neither of my children have gotten over 100 and that was only for the first day or so we are all at 98.6 range now. I still have a cough, headache, and back pain between my shoulder blades that is going on 8 days now but zero temp. My son is bad enough he has had to use a nebulizer the last 2 nights in the middle of the night and his oxygen was down to 93 at one point and no fever at all. If you look online there are many reports of just a mild fever or no fever at all.

July 25

Cooked a couple st louis. Like 70/30 dominator sweet rib rub and bad byrons. Drank some beers with my neighbor.

glad we are not neighbors 

Lit

alaskanassasin said:

Lit said:

ColbyLang said:

caliking said:

ColbyLang said:

My money on all of the kids in our private school system home by Oct 1 for continued distance learning. One teacher or student will contract the virus and they’ll shut it all down.

it’s unfortunate because while I know what I “taught” my son for 4.5 months, I know I didn’t get my money’s worth!!

I think schools will try some kind of containment strategy, i.e. if a teacher or student tests positive, that section/class will stay at home for X days and then return. 

For whatever reasons, daycares have skirted this burning question/issue about staying open. They’re similar to schools. Caliprince hasn’t been to his since March, but its been open the whole time, except for 1 week. 

Are daycares contributing to the spread of COVID in TX? Maybe. Current data has not demonstrated that (yet), but that could change. 

My 5 and 3 year olds just reopened for the summer session. Temp check upon arrival and throughout the day. Static group all day, no shared recess or even multiple groups of kids on playground on same day. 

Private school has a very detailed plan on reopening under phase 2, if we don’t backslide here in Louisiana. These kids need to go back to school. The sanity of mothers and fathers everywhere depend on it!

Its funny people are using temperature as a gauge. I'm fairly sure my household has it right now and the highest my temp ever got was 99.5. Neither of my children have gotten over 100 and that was only for the first day or so we are all at 98.6 range now. I still have a cough, headache, and back pain between my shoulder blades that is going on 8 days now but zero temp. My son is bad enough he has had to use a nebulizer the last 2 nights in the middle of the night and his oxygen was down to 93 at one point and no fever at all. If you look online there are many reports of just a mild fever or no fever at all.

July 25

Cooked a couple st louis. Like 70/30 dominator sweet rib rub and bad byrons. Drank some beers with my neighbor.

glad we are not neighbors 

My son got tested we didnt have it. Also yesterday was the 13th day since i started feeling symptoms and according to the CDC even if I was positive I only needed to quarantine for 10 days.

JohnInCarolina

Lit

JohnInCarolina said:

Whats so funny? I thought you were a math guy you do know 13 is greater than 10 right?

pgprescott

what about the millions of kids that have been in daycare facilities for months now as they have been deemed essential? Should they all go home? Just want them to be safe of course. How have they not all been in ICU by now? Something just doesn’t add up but I can’t put my finger on it. Huh? 

JohnInCarolina

pgprescott said:

what about the millions of kids that have been in daycare facilities for months now as they have been deemed essential? Should they all go home? Just want them to be safe of course. How have they not all been in ICU by now? Something just doesn’t add up but I can’t put my finger on it. Huh? 

In the podcast Osterholm actually talks about how the little kids haven't been the engine of infection we'd normally expect during say a typical influenza season.  Did you listen to it?

caliking

This is an emotionally, politically, and economically charged issue. 

I'm not that worried about the kids. Non-FaceBook sourced data suggests that infection, transmission, morbidity, mortality are far far lower in kids, especially younger than 10yo. Higher in 10-19yo, but still way lower than in the age groups higher than that. 

I am concerned about the teachers and staff though. They're adults, and much more likely to be infected, transmit it, get sick, die from it than the kids. Per the CIDRAP podcasts, almost 50% (can't recall exactly) or more of school teachers are >40yo. If for nothing else, their safety needs to be considered because there aint no school happening if there isn't any staff to make it happen. 

Which is also why its not as easy as telling school staff to just suck it up. If they quit as teachers (not likely), good luck finding replacements. If they get sick, school will be disrupted to varying degrees because of quarantine, contact tracing, etc. 

But, yes, daycares may have shown that its not all doom and gloom. Scads of daycares have been open through all of this, and their kids and staff seem to have done pretty well. If we could cut through all of the crap re: drinking bleach, hydroxychloroquine, people's medical conditions and rights that preclude wearing a mask, etc. maybe the govt will think its useful to study why/how COVID didn't blow up in daycares.