'No Way To Prevent This,' says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

JohnInCarolina

WildmanWilson said:

Look what came in today!! Come over and I’ll teach you how to shoot and not be afraid of those black guns. 

That’s an awful lot of… compensation.

I don’t need anyone to teach me how to shoot.  I started learning when I was about 8.  Try again.

dmchicago

They misspelled.556

Legume

I love this logic (sarcasm for the impaired)

“Doing X won’t stop ALL gun deaths, so there is no point.  Now I’m going to sound interested in mental health.”

All or nothing, like that’s ever real life.

“Maybe it’s the internet or video games or bullying.  We’ve always had guns and we didn’t used to have these problems” 

So let’s regulate the internet or video games or bullying (?) What then, video games don’t kill people, my internet gun forums don’t kill people and freeeeee speeeeeech

Would you support higher taxes or higher Gov spend on schools, healthcare, etc?  I don’t think you would.  At least be honest with yourself if not here.

littlerascal56

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

JohnInCarolina said:

WildmanWilson said:

JohnInCarolina said:

WildmanWilson said:

nolaegghead said:

In my opinion, news should show the actual horror of war, mass shootings, avoidable accidents.  Many countries don't censor footage like we do.  We need to own up to the reality that we allow to occur daily in the US.  .223 and other  bullets are designed for war to cause maximum trauma.  Lets take off the blinders and see what really happens. 

I'm not saying make it gratuitous, but enough to know why we needed to use DNA to identify bodies.

Hearing a report of X people shot has become so common, we are becoming numb and conditioned to the frequency this happens.

Same with war, famine, poverty, etc.  Let's grow up. 

BTW - I can't see any video above, just that Editor's Note.

Many are too woke to be called by the wrong pronoun. Do you really think they are ready for anything being that graphic?

You lack any knowledge of firearms. Don't feel bad, many do. The .223 and .556 are not made for maximum trauma. The ones used are usually always full metal jacket that actually reduce trauma.  A small 9mm with a hollow point is more devastating. The .223 and .556 are illegal to deer hunt in many places because they are/were thought to be too small. A .270 and 30-06 are hunting calibers that are much more deadly. Its not to say that any bullet shot into someone's body will not kill and do damage. Even a small rimfire like a .22 hollow point will explode/expand and do great damage. 

I've already shown that past mass shooting did great damage with just handguns and other weapons other than ARs. You want to place your aggression on a type of bullet/gun rather than the real issue at hand. 

What happens when the ARs are gone and you still see 20 people shot with shotguns or handguns? More bans? More laws?

More discussions need to happen. Lets talk about mental illness and bullying. About how social media could be making it worse. How we can do more to keep these evil people out to start with. Lets get off the one track subject of ARs being the issue. 

Bravo.  You really could not be more clueless about some of the members here if you tried.  

Some members maybe. Some dead on. Its not hard to tell someone is full of crap when they try to talk about something they know nothing about. You see the leftwing media doing it all the time. You parrot much of it. 

Dude you literally accused someone who probably owns more firearms than you do of lacking any knowledge about firearms.  Maybe buy a friggin clue.

The quonset ain't gonna protect itself. 

Doubt you need to worry about the Quonset.  With all that BLM graffiti painted inside, I can see a black Suburban with dark windows parked on the street nearby! Just sayin…

The Cen-Tex Smoker

WildmanWilson said:

lousubcap said:

As i wrote in an earlier post on this thread, if the solution were easy it would have been done.  I'm no lawyer here or into the nuances of some legalese but universal background checks for any sale (ie like car registration and sale) the new owner has to take documented ownership.  How about chipping newly manufactured fire arms and pairing the chip to a registration.
Restoring the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004.  
What about a holding period between purchase and possession to enable big data to at least give the buyer a once over.  
Why are some hard-over gun rights activists pushing so hard against enhancing the requirements for ownership?  Seems counter-intuitive to me.
Of course, let's not address the well trained militia part of the second amendment.  Clearly to do the training you have to know who owns the guns...
 I will give you the mental health part of the discussion, but without the gun the mental health issue is moot in this instance.  Off Friday soap-box on this topic. 

A gun registry will lead to confiscation.  The ban does nothing. Its been tried and even if you take them all its just as easy for someone to kill large numbers with other guns. That's already happened numbers times. A waiting period also does nothing. So what if they must wait another week or month to carry out their plan? Most all the people that do these mass shootings passed background checks. Some of these shooters were already on a list or had issues with police at some point. They did not do enough to have their rights taken at that point though. You can't take peoples rights away on a hunch. Some of these people were never on a radar so what do you do about them?

I've talked before about the fact we had no background checks not so long ago and it wasn't an issue. There were no more shooting then and probable less. Anyone will get a gun if they want. There are close to 400 million in ownership now. They aren't going away. Criminals aren't giving them up.

One thing I would like to see is the persons name or picture could never be released. I'm not sure most would carry these shooting out knowing no one would ever know who did it. They want the world to know who they are.

I assure you the good captain does not need a lecture on how guns and ammo work from a guy who’s idea of service is flexing his internet muscles and bragging about his latest stash of armor piercing plink rounds on a bbq forum. 

dbCooper

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

WildmanWilson

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

WildmanWilson said:

lousubcap said:

As i wrote in an earlier post on this thread, if the solution were easy it would have been done.  I'm no lawyer here or into the nuances of some legalese but universal background checks for any sale (ie like car registration and sale) the new owner has to take documented ownership.  How about chipping newly manufactured fire arms and pairing the chip to a registration.
Restoring the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004.  
What about a holding period between purchase and possession to enable big data to at least give the buyer a once over.  
Why are some hard-over gun rights activists pushing so hard against enhancing the requirements for ownership?  Seems counter-intuitive to me.
Of course, let's not address the well trained militia part of the second amendment.  Clearly to do the training you have to know who owns the guns...
 I will give you the mental health part of the discussion, but without the gun the mental health issue is moot in this instance.  Off Friday soap-box on this topic. 

A gun registry will lead to confiscation.  The ban does nothing. Its been tried and even if you take them all its just as easy for someone to kill large numbers with other guns. That's already happened numbers times. A waiting period also does nothing. So what if they must wait another week or month to carry out their plan? Most all the people that do these mass shootings passed background checks. Some of these shooters were already on a list or had issues with police at some point. They did not do enough to have their rights taken at that point though. You can't take peoples rights away on a hunch. Some of these people were never on a radar so what do you do about them?

I've talked before about the fact we had no background checks not so long ago and it wasn't an issue. There were no more shooting then and probable less. Anyone will get a gun if they want. There are close to 400 million in ownership now. They aren't going away. Criminals aren't giving them up.

One thing I would like to see is the persons name or picture could never be released. I'm not sure most would carry these shooting out knowing no one would ever know who did it. They want the world to know who they are.

I assure you the good captain does not need a lecture on how guns and ammo work from a guy who’s idea of service is flexing his internet muscles and bragging about his latest stash of armor piercing plink rounds on a bbq forum. 

No. I suppose he just needs you to hang from his jock and come to his rescue. LOL

JohnInCarolina

WildmanWilson

dbCooper said:

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

Explain this to me.... Guns have always been available. Actually easier to get than now. There were no background checks. Not even serial numbers. You could walk into a pawn shop and buy most anything even. If having easy access to a gun is the issue then why wasn't it an issue then?

Now explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe?

Mass shootings account for .1% of the firearm homicides. Only 12% of mass killings are mass public shootings. Most mass killings are “familicides”...(murders of family members or partners) and felony-related killings (robberies or gang related turf battles).

Over 50% of the mass public shootings have been with handguns only. I've shown that you don't need an AR to kill a lot of people. Its misguided to think putting a ban on them would solve the problem.

A guy in China committed a mass stabbing and killed 31 and injured 143
A guy in Japan did the same and killed 19 and injured 45
A guy in France used a truck to ram people and killed 86 and injured 434

Now read this and take it how you like.

New CPRC Research: How a Botched Study Fooled the World About the U.S. Share of Mass Public Shootings: U.S. Rate is Lower than Global Average (crimeresearch.org)

JohnInCarolina

WildmanWilson said:

dbCooper said:

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

Now explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe?

 “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”

That would be a NO, apparently.  Not a fact in sight backing up this view of mental health as the root cause.

WildmanWilson

JohnInCarolina said:

WildmanWilson said:

dbCooper said:

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

Now explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe?

 “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”

That would be a NO, apparently.  Not a fact in sight backing up this view of mental health as the root cause.

Funny that none of you answer anything I ask. Probably because you have no facts to stand on.

I've never said it was the root cause. As far a data on mental illness there is no hard data because its nothing you can measure. No different than saying supply the ratio video game playing vs gun deaths. Now answer my question....Explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe? So is mental illness really worse? 

caliking

I can't tell whether you're being so naive that it's cute, disingenuous, or just plain ignorant.

There isn't as much research re: gun violence, gun control (causes, contributing factors, impact, etc.), because... thanks Dickey amendment.

https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2013/02/gun-violence

JohnInCarolina

WildmanWilson said:

JohnInCarolina said:

WildmanWilson said:

dbCooper said:

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

Now explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe?

 “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”

That would be a NO, apparently.  Not a fact in sight backing up this view of mental health as the root cause.

Funny that none of you answer anything I ask. Probably because you have no facts to stand on.

Some time ago you had opined that we don’t really have any more guns in the US now than when you were growing up.  When presented with data that shows that actually, we have a lot more guns now per capita than we did 20 years ago, you asked “what does that prove?”

You are totally immune to facts, logic, and reason on this issue and just about every other one as far as I can tell.  It’s been entertaining watching your self owns though so by all means carry on my dude.

WildmanWilson

So you will not answer my questions? I'm wearing my shocked face...All of you  only deflect. Doesn't matter if I ask about guns or Biden's policies, you simple post more gibberish without answering anything. How about this...can you give me a definition of what a woman is? Seems even that's too hard for a lib to answer now.

I list data and you list opinions. I've shown with data how ARs are not the problem you want us to believe. I've shown public mass shootings are just a fraction of the actual homicides and your answer is more laws and take ARs even though they are a blip of the data sheet. Why aren't any of you complaining about the people in the cities like Chicago and Baltimore being slaughtered. Is it because its one or two at a time? Or that they use handguns? Or that they are mostly black? It seems you only care when its a gun free zone and you get a chance to scream for more gun control.

JohnInCarolina

WildmanWilson said:

So you will not answer my questions? I'm wearing my shocked face...All of you  only deflect. Doesn't matter if I ask about guns or Biden's policies, you simple post more gibberish without answering anything. How about this...can you give me a definition of what a woman is? Seems even that's too hard for a lib to answer now.

I list data and you list opinions. I've shown with data how ARs are not the problem you want us to believe. I've shown public mass shootings are just a fraction of the actual homicides and your answer is more laws and take ARs even though they are a blip of the data sheet. Why aren't any of you complaining about the people in the cities like Chicago and Baltimore being slaughtered. Is it because its one or two at a time? Or that they use handguns? Or that they are mostly black? It seems you only care when its a gun free zone and you get a chance to scream for more gun control.

Yes, you are right.

caliking

So this is what Parler is like...

Legume

caliking said:

So this is what Parler is like...

Sort of, but the spelling is better here.

dbCooper

WildmanWilson said:

JohnInCarolina said:

WildmanWilson said:

dbCooper said:

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

Now explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe?

 “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”

That would be a NO, apparently.  Not a fact in sight backing up this view of mental health as the root cause.

Funny that none of you answer anything I ask. Probably because you have no facts to stand on.

I've never said it was the root cause. As far a data on mental illness there is no hard data because its nothing you can measure. No different than saying supply the ratio video game playing vs gun deaths. Now answer my question....Explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe? So is mental illness really worse? 

@WildmanWilson

Your post here, https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2655761/#Comment_2655761, states that guns/ammo are not at the root of the issue but mental illness is.  My response to you accepted that premise and asked for you to explain why that premise does not hold true in other developed nations.

https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2655863/#Comment_2655863

I am missing something in your argument, you now seem to be saying mental illness is not at the root of the issue.  Further confusion on my part when you state mental illness is worse now/not worse now, prefaced by "As far a data on mental illness there is no hard data because its nothing you can measure."  Of course that is not true, but lets say it is.  How then are you determining rates of mental illness are/aren't worse now?

I'm finding it hard to have a rational discussion around the positions you are posting.  They do not seem to be consistent or well thought out.

*edit to correct linked post

Legume

Yeah, I don’t understand “no data on mental illness because there is nothing you can measure”

or asking why aren’t people upset about all the one off shootings that are done with handguns - who says people aren’t upset about these?  Would you prefer a push to ban all guns?

I know one thing that has changed over the years - the ban on assault rifles expired and was not renewed

JohnInCarolina

dmchicago

I just found ww’s Twitter feed. He posted this 

WildmanWilson

dbCooper said:

WildmanWilson said:

JohnInCarolina said:

WildmanWilson said:

dbCooper said:

@WildmanWilson

Correct my understanding if incorrect, you seem to maintain the availability of guns/ammunition is a non-issue.  So take that as a given fact and remove from discussion.  Further, you point to focusing on mental health issues as a root cause. 

From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?  I maintain the USA ratio is much lower.  If this is accurate how would you explain it and propose to fix it?

Now explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe?

 “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”

That would be a NO, apparently.  Not a fact in sight backing up this view of mental health as the root cause.

Funny that none of you answer anything I ask. Probably because you have no facts to stand on.

I've never said it was the root cause. As far a data on mental illness there is no hard data because its nothing you can measure. No different than saying supply the ratio video game playing vs gun deaths. Now answer my question....Explain why mental health is worse now? Are kids being over medicated? Has the woke culture created more snowflakes that can't deal with life? Maybe? So is mental illness really worse? 

@WildmanWilson

Your post here, https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2655761/#Comment_2655761, states that guns/ammo are not at the root of the issue but mental illness is.  My response to you accepted that premise and asked for you to explain why that premise does not hold true in other developed nations.

https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2655863/#Comment_2655863

I am missing something in your argument, you now seem to be saying mental illness is not at the root of the issue.  Further confusion on my part when you state mental illness is worse now/not worse now, prefaced by "As far a data on mental illness there is no hard data because its nothing you can measure."  Of course that is not true, but lets say it is.  How then are you determining rates of mental illness are/aren't worse now?

I'm finding it hard to have a rational discussion around the positions you are posting.  They do not seem to be consistent or well thought out.

*edit to correct linked post

Its seems you lack the ability to comprehend the written word. I never said mental illness was the root cause. I said we need to have more discussions and that includes mental illness. In this discussion, I want someone to just explain if it is mental illness why is it worse now and what's the cause. I also asked are kids overmedicated now? I asked if its bullying? Is it violent video games?

 I'm fine with talking about all of it but I've never seen any data from the gun control side that proves any of their talking points. All we seem to hear is ARs are weapons of war. We need to take these away. We need to take high capacity mags. When pressed they will just say, "no it wont stop the shooting but it will help" ? How ? How much will it help? You want to take guns from the vast majority of folks that use them legally on a hunch it will help. I've shown there have been mass shooting with many people killed and they didn't use ARs. I've shown mass stabbings are capable of killing large numbers. I've shown a truck can be use to kill vast amounts of people.... It still always goes back to the bad black gun.

 

JohnInCarolina

It’s almost as though the implications of the simple title of this thread have eluded some here.  Can’t imagine why that would be…

WildmanWilson

Legume said:

Yeah, I don’t understand “no data on mental illness because there is nothing you can measure”

or asking why aren’t people upset about all the one off shootings that are done with handguns - who says people aren’t upset about these?  Would you prefer a push to ban all guns?

I know one thing that has changed over the years - the ban on assault rifles expired and was not renewed

I was referring to the question someone asked....  “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”......There's no way of knowing what percentage of shooters in America or around the globe that shoot someone is mentally ill. I don't know how that data can be accurately measured or collected.

The reason I asked the handgun question is they are used to kill the most people by far and its not even close. So a ban on ARs will statically do little to nothing to change anything. What does happen is once there's on ban there is always another one to "help some more". I also showed the data on mass shooting accounting for very few deaths and that public mass shootings are still a very low percentage.  Mass shootings account for .1% of the firearm homicides. Only 12% of mass killings are mass public shootings. Most mass killings are “familicides”...(murders of family members or partners) and felony-related killings (robberies or gang related turf battles).

So I will ask....Give me hard data to how much the .1% will go down if ARs are banned? I don't need the typical answer of "but it will help" or "we must do something". Its a knee jerk reaction and not an answer.

JohnInCarolina

Wildman actually makes some great points.  Since we still have a lot of drunk drivers, we should just get rid of laws against drunk driving, road checkpoints, etc.  These kind of common sense laws and regulations haven’t stopped every single drunk driver, nor will they ever be able to in the future.   We should just get rid of them, since they’re mostly a nuisance to law abiding citizens.  

caliking

WildmanWilson said:

Legume said:

Yeah, I don’t understand “no data on mental illness because there is nothing you can measure”

or asking why aren’t people upset about all the one off shootings that are done with handguns - who says people aren’t upset about these?  Would you prefer a push to ban all guns?

I know one thing that has changed over the years - the ban on assault rifles expired and was not renewed

I was referring to the question someone asked....  “From your research can you supply facts regarding the ratio of mental health issues in the USA vs gun deaths as compared to the ratio in other countries, in particular 1st world countries?”......There's no way of knowing what percentage of shooters in America or around the globe that shoot someone is mentally ill. I don't know how that data can be accurately measured or collected.

The reason I asked the handgun question is they are used to kill the most people by far and its not even close. So a ban on ARs will statically do little to nothing to change anything. What does happen is once there's on ban there is always another one to "help some more". I also showed the data on mass shooting accounting for very few deaths and that public mass shootings are still a very low percentage.  Mass shootings account for .1% of the firearm homicides. Only 12% of mass killings are mass public shootings. Most mass killings are “familicides”...(murders of family members or partners) and felony-related killings (robberies or gang related turf battles).

So I will ask....Give me hard data to how much the .1% will go down if ARs are banned? I don't need the typical answer of "but it will help" or "we must do something". Its a knee jerk reaction and not an answer.

https://journals.lww.com/hrpjournal/fulltext/2021/01000/mental_illness,_mass_shootings,_and_the_future_of.6.aspx

You've demonstrated remarkable Google-fu recently. For a change, use those superpowers for good.

JohnInCarolina

http://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1548718159452143624?s=20&t=eaALkp4byDwVfZ1Xo2fYVg

caliking

I'll admit to not following the "after the fact" reports of the Uvalde tragedy.

After reading the titles, all I hear is the screams of children who could only be identified by DNA, and the anguished cries of their parents. 

I can't deal with it. 

JohnInCarolina

caliking said:

I'll admit to not following the "after the fact" reports of the Uvalde tragedy.

After reading the titles, all I hear is the screams of children who could only be identified by DNA, and the anguished cries of their parents. 

I can't deal with it. 

It is unfathomable for any parent.  Just awful.

lousubcap

All the more reason for the spineless lawmakers to see the videos/hear the audio first hand.  As above, too sanitized for the true carnage to be acknowledged by assault weapon devastation.  Woman/man up and deal with the facts.  Too scared and why??  Off mini-soap box.