Restoring Another Offset Smoker and Pork Butts

nolaegghead

Photo Egg said:

lkapigian said:

lousubcap said:

I would go with the fire box vents wide open and then work back from there.  But I have to say that the small size of that fire and your temperature issues are definitely outliers to me.  At some point this has to all come together-easy for me to say.  

Im in this camp, wide open and control by the source ...i still think I would increase the draw on this( stack height )..the other issue is sometimes these smaller fire boxes are better suited to lump//coal with splits for flavor 

Excellent project and thread 

If you’re getting clean smoke and pit temps are actually higher than needed, why would you increase the draw to stoke the fire more and burn more fuel?

Not saying it’s the wrong move, just trying to understand.

I don't know much about offsets but I believe they operate best with full aerobic air flow, the throttle being the amount of fuel, much like a diesel engine (vs a gasoline/BGE with an "air" throttle).  Sure, the fire will burn faster with more airflow but not much faster if it's maxed out, and the bypass air would have a dampening effect as you are heating it up and it's removing heat from the system. 

nolaegghead

After doing some research on cheap offsets, my conclusion is these (your design) should never have been made. 

I would turn it into a reverse flow or sell it while it looks pretty. 

(disclaimer, my opinion based on limited research).

What we need here is the local anus expert.... Calling @SGH!

WeberWho

Photo Egg said:

WeberWho said:

Photo Egg said:

The only major difference I can see is fire position. I got better results keeping my fire in the back of the box next to chamber wall. As I added more wood to the front as needed. This kept the new wood smoke going through the heat and flames of the stable fire. This helped keep my smoke cleaner. I would then push the coals back as needed and add more wood.
When you say it does’t like you to shut down the top vent, what happens?

Sorry, I meant the exhaust.

I added a bigger split because that little fire isn't going to cut it. The front thermometer is up and past 300 degrees. I might have to cut them up into chunks to see if that helps at all. Small splits appear to be way too hot for this smoker and a little baby fire isn't going to work. 

I'm done for the night and running out of options. I just don't get it.....

Agree, very frustrating. I knew what you were talking about. But what bad happens when exhaust is slowly closed down after you have established fire?

It starts to choke the fire and it doesn't draft properly. Ill get smoke coming out of the firebox vents. 

WeberWho

lkapigian said:

lousubcap said:

I would go with the fire box vents wide open and then work back from there.  But I have to say that the small size of that fire and your temperature issues are definitely outliers to me.  At some point this has to all come together-easy for me to say.  

Im in this camp, wide open and control by the source ...i still think I would increase the draw on this( stack height )..the other issue is sometimes these smaller fire boxes are better suited to lump//coal with splits for flavor 

Excellent project and thread 

I think you're right. I don't think this size of smoker is meant to run on splits alone. I'm not seeing how it's possible. I sent an email to Horizon as this Brinkmann Cimarron is essentially their Horizon Classic Smoker model and asked if it is possible to run on splits alone. It will be interesting to see what they say. 

WeberWho

nolaegghead said:

After doing some research on cheap offsets, my conclusion is these (your design) should never have been made. 

I would turn it into a reverse flow or sell it while it looks pretty. 

(disclaimer, my opinion based on limited research).

What we need here is the local anus expert.... Calling @SGH!

Yeah, it might just become a smoker/grill or unfortunately might hit the the classifieds if I can't get something figured out. Which isn't ideal. 

lkapigian

WeberWho said:

lkapigian said:

lousubcap said:

I would go with the fire box vents wide open and then work back from there.  But I have to say that the small size of that fire and your temperature issues are definitely outliers to me.  At some point this has to all come together-easy for me to say.  

Im in this camp, wide open and control by the source ...i still think I would increase the draw on this( stack height )..the other issue is sometimes these smaller fire boxes are better suited to lump//coal with splits for flavor 

Excellent project and thread 

I think you're right. I don't think this size of smoker is meant to run on splits alone. I'm not seeing how it's possible. I sent an email to Horizon as this Brinkmann Cimarron is essentially there Horizon Classic Smoker model and asked if it is possible to run on splits alone. It will be interesting to see what they say. 

I have a small Big Bix Store offset I converted to reverse flow years ago, it will run 225 steady , I start with lump, add splits and no more lump

@Photo Egg , think convection oven, they cook very evenly. The fire box and draw in an offset go hand in hand, control the heat by the source , the stack will give you the increased convection and even the temps .

Foghorn

Yeah.  Like a convection oven - with the air flowing horizontally.  Ideally.  I honestly think that just having a really long cooking chamber so that the meat can be placed well away from the firebox is the best design for an offset.  To illustrate the actual cooking area there probably shouldn’t be a grate within a foot of the firebox.  

I’ve come to realize that just looking at the grate area on an offset and assuming you can cook on all of it is really misleading.  If you fully load up an offset with big hunks of meat you have all kinds of problems.  The meat near the firebox gets burned on the bottom.  Airflow can get restricted if you really load the meat on.  That means any meat that is downwind doesn’t get enough heat.  

Offsets are not at all like a BGE that can just be loaded up and left alone.  

So, while this is a thread about offsets, anybody reading this who is trying to decide what smoker/grill to buy should recognize that eggs don’t cause anywhere near this level of consternation.  

Photo Egg

On the bright side, you might have rebuilt a really nice chicken cooker.
If it runs perfect at around 300, let it. Perfect for your weekend afternoon cooks of split chickens and slow cooked burgers. This is probably the market targeted with smaller smokers like ours. 

What size is your actual cooking chamber and box. What diameter pipe?

WeberWho

Photo Egg said:

On the bright side, you might have rebuilt a really nice chicken cooker.
If it runs perfect at around 300, let it. Perfect for your weekend afternoon cooks of split chickens and slow cooked burgers. This is probably the market targeted with smaller smokers like ours. 

What size is your actual cooking chamber and box. What diameter pipe?

Yeah, it might just become the dedicated chicken cooker with it wanting to run around 300 degrees. 

I don't think much has changed when Roger sold off to Brinkmann and became Horizon.  I believe the overall dimensions are the same as the 16" Classic Horizon Smoker they sell now. Pretty much the exact same smoker after all these years. 

Photo Egg

lkapigian said:

WeberWho said:

lkapigian said:

lousubcap said:

I would go with the fire box vents wide open and then work back from there.  But I have to say that the small size of that fire and your temperature issues are definitely outliers to me.  At some point this has to all come together-easy for me to say.  

Im in this camp, wide open and control by the source ...i still think I would increase the draw on this( stack height )..the other issue is sometimes these smaller fire boxes are better suited to lump//coal with splits for flavor 

Excellent project and thread 

I think you're right. I don't think this size of smoker is meant to run on splits alone. I'm not seeing how it's possible. I sent an email to Horizon as this Brinkmann Cimarron is essentially there Horizon Classic Smoker model and asked if it is possible to run on splits alone. It will be interesting to see what they say. 

I have a small Big Bix Store offset I converted to reverse flow years ago, it will run 225 steady , I start with lump, add splits and no more lump

@Photo Egg , think convection oven, they cook very evenly. The fire box and draw in an offset go hand in hand, control the heat by the source , the stack will give you the increased convection and even the temps .

So possibly, if he increased his stack, it creates more/stronger pull, even with box vents partially closed. This makes for higher speed airflow that helps even out the temps?

nolaegghead

Photo Egg said:

lkapigian said:

WeberWho said:

lkapigian said:

lousubcap said:

I would go with the fire box vents wide open and then work back from there.  But I have to say that the small size of that fire and your temperature issues are definitely outliers to me.  At some point this has to all come together-easy for me to say.  

Im in this camp, wide open and control by the source ...i still think I would increase the draw on this( stack height )..the other issue is sometimes these smaller fire boxes are better suited to lump//coal with splits for flavor 

Excellent project and thread 

I think you're right. I don't think this size of smoker is meant to run on splits alone. I'm not seeing how it's possible. I sent an email to Horizon as this Brinkmann Cimarron is essentially there Horizon Classic Smoker model and asked if it is possible to run on splits alone. It will be interesting to see what they say. 

I have a small Big Bix Store offset I converted to reverse flow years ago, it will run 225 steady , I start with lump, add splits and no more lump

@Photo Egg , think convection oven, they cook very evenly. The fire box and draw in an offset go hand in hand, control the heat by the source , the stack will give you the increased convection and even the temps .

So possibly, if he increased his stack, it creates more/stronger pull, even with box vents partially closed. This makes for higher speed airflow that helps even out the temps?

The way I figure out problems like this, and I'm sure there's some mathematical symbols @JohnInCarolina could provide, is I look at the problem from one extreme to the other.

Zero (or very low) airflow to infinite (or very high) airflow.

What's an analogy?  My central HVAC system comes to mind.   So the house is cold.  I turn on the heater.  Fan is barely working.  Vents - hot, house - cold, return air - cold.  Next crank up the flow to max.  House warms up, eventually to an even temp.  Given a fixed amount of heat generated, a high enough flow won't even let the heat exchanger get very hot.

lkapigian

nolaegghead said:

Photo Egg said:

lkapigian said:

WeberWho said:

lkapigian said:

lousubcap said:

I would go with the fire box vents wide open and then work back from there.  But I have to say that the small size of that fire and your temperature issues are definitely outliers to me.  At some point this has to all come together-easy for me to say.  

Im in this camp, wide open and control by the source ...i still think I would increase the draw on this( stack height )..the other issue is sometimes these smaller fire boxes are better suited to lump//coal with splits for flavor 

Excellent project and thread 

I think you're right. I don't think this size of smoker is meant to run on splits alone. I'm not seeing how it's possible. I sent an email to Horizon as this Brinkmann Cimarron is essentially there Horizon Classic Smoker model and asked if it is possible to run on splits alone. It will be interesting to see what they say. 

I have a small Big Bix Store offset I converted to reverse flow years ago, it will run 225 steady , I start with lump, add splits and no more lump

@Photo Egg , think convection oven, they cook very evenly. The fire box and draw in an offset go hand in hand, control the heat by the source , the stack will give you the increased convection and even the temps .

So possibly, if he increased his stack, it creates more/stronger pull, even with box vents partially closed. This makes for higher speed airflow that helps even out the temps?

The way I figure out problems like this, and I'm sure there's some mathematical symbols @JohnInCarolina could provide, is I look at the problem from one extreme to the other.

Zero (or very low) airflow to infinite (or very high) airflow.

What's an analogy?  My central HVAC system comes to mind.   So the house is cold.  I turn on the heater.  Fan is barely working.  Vents - hot, house - cold, return air - cold.  Next crank up the flow to max.  House warms up, eventually to an even temp.  Given a fixed amount of heat generated, a high enough flow won't even let the heat exchanger get very hot.

^^^^ I guess it's just the HVAC in me ...the variance is the flow across the coal bed can increase the bed temp and why stack and bed have to be in harmony ....this is why we indulge when we cook , weather it be booze or the California Stuff 

hvhunter

Many years ago I had one of these original Brinkmans. Bought it at Kmart if not mistaken. Was very heavy. Had all the problems mentioned here; crappy wheels, uneven heat, over heating the food box. Ended up selling it on CL as I was doing nothing with it any longer. 

I like the mods you did; especially the axl/wheel so it can be moved around. That was a big negative for me. I wonder if there was a heat deflector plate, that covered the interior completely, with no holes for the first 6-8", would make an evenly heated oven.  

hvhunter

My daughter still talks about the Suckling Pig I did one July 4th on it. 

lkapigian

hvhunter said:

My daughter still talks about the Suckling Pig I did one July 4th on it. 

Like ^ 

WeberWho

hvhunter said:

Many years ago I had one of these original Brinkmans. Bought it at Kmart if not mistaken. Was very heavy. Had all the problems mentioned here; crappy wheels, uneven heat, over heating the food box. Ended up selling it on CL as I was doing nothing with it any longer. 

I like the mods you did; especially the axl/wheel so it can be moved around. That was a big negative for me. I wonder if there was a heat deflector plate, that covered the interior completely, with no holes for the first 6-8", would make an evenly heated oven.  

I don't think mine is a full quarter but 3/16" all day long. The main reason why I picked up the smoker. It has to be 250+ pounds. I planned for it to be around long term so the wheels were the first to go. 

Unfortunately this might also end up on Craigslist. I'd imagine it's a hell of a smoker with lump and chunks of wood no doubt, but my intentions were to run full splits with it. Which I'm thinking isn't possible. 

Photo Egg

WeberWho said:

Photo Egg said:

On the bright side, you might have rebuilt a really nice chicken cooker.
If it runs perfect at around 300, let it. Perfect for your weekend afternoon cooks of split chickens and slow cooked burgers. This is probably the market targeted with smaller smokers like ours. 

What size is your actual cooking chamber and box. What diameter pipe?

Yeah, it might just become the dedicated chicken cooker with it wanting to run around 300 degrees. 

I don't think much has changed when Roger sold off to Brinkmann and became Horizon.  I believe the overall dimensions are the same as the 16" Classic Horizon Smoker they sell now. Pretty much the exact same smoker after all these years. 

Thanks, was wondering if it was 16” or 20”.
The one I bought local in Houston is 20” pipe on both cooking chamber and firebox and 42” width on cooking chamber, 22” firebox.
I really wanted 24” pipe and 48” wide, but got impatient.
I need to pick up more wood and fire it up again and test the temperature range.

WeberWho

So I posted a thread over on the Brethren about the small little fire it took to keep things around 275 degrees. 



I received a couple comments saying that fire doesn't look that small. I've been told a basket and 8 to 10" splits by 2" diameter will help. 

I'm not sure how much I'd be able to control the fire but it's a glimmer of hope! 

Photo Egg

Might as well put a Kick Ash Basket in there to help keep the coals together.
I can’t imagine trying to tend and keep such a small fire going.

lousubcap

@Photo Egg - Your air flow is thru the front and the only escape route is thru the cooking chamber as best I can tell.  Thus the size of the fire, given no alternative escape route is gonna drive the temperature.  I would be surprised if that sized fire (unless strictly coals) will help but other than wood and time, As you note, give it a shot.
Best of luck with this endeavor.  

alaskanassasin

Photo Egg said:

Might as well put a Kick Ash Basket in there to help keep the coals together.
I can’t imagine trying to tend and keep such a small fire going.

Smaller wood.

Photo Egg

alaskanassasin said:

Photo Egg said:

Might as well put a Kick Ash Basket in there to help keep the coals together.
I can’t imagine trying to tend and keep such a small fire going.

Smaller wood.

I get that. But seems like a lot of time tending with little pieces of wood instead of drinking beer.
Seems like KA basket would be great way to keep the smaller pieces of wood and coals together. But I hope a longer stack solves his issue.

WeberWho

I've also been told to add a piece of lump about the size of a softball from time to time. They say it equals out the heat of the coal bed with smaller splits. 

FarmingPhD

So Weberwho, you are saying don’t do it?

WeberWho

FarmingPhD said:

So Weberwho, you are saying don’t do it?

Don't let me be any type of ambassador for these little offset smokers! 

That hump/log warmer on the firebox and the shelf below has me thinking it's not the older 3/16 steel version of the Brinkmanns. I want to say it's more current. Just looking at the photo quick without any research. 

I'm sure others who have played around with these smaller smokers could walk up to it and run it like a pro. It's a lot of trial and error. I'm more or less being hard headed trying to run it on splits alone. I'm sure it would run flawlessly with a combination of lump and small splits. Which might be the way I'll end up running it. 

FarmingPhD

I was trying to find a way to determine age by serial #4590 on this one, but not much info on a quick search.  I’ve been window shopping a stick burner for a year, I don’t have a good excuse for needing one other than I like the idea of the clean smoke on an offset. I think it’s heavier steel, but not sure it’s worth the $250.  Based on your experience I wouldn’t be afraid of modding it to a reverse flow, just not sure if use it much considering the time to tend this versus the egg.  Ok - done hijacking your thread. Thanks for sharing your experience as it’s been very helpful to me.

nolaegghead

FarmingPhD said:

I was trying to find a way to determine age by serial #4590 on this one, but not much info on a quick search.  I’ve been window shopping a stick burner for a year, I don’t have a good excuse for needing one other than I like the idea of the clean smoke on an offset. I think it’s heavier steel, but not sure it’s worth the $250.  Based on your experience I wouldn’t be afraid of modding it to a reverse flow, just not sure if use it much considering the time to tend this versus the egg.  Ok - done hijacking your thread. Thanks for sharing your experience as it’s been very helpful to me.

That looks like pretty thick steel from here.

WeberWho

FarmingPhD said:

I was trying to find a way to determine age by serial #4590 on this one, but not much info on a quick search.  I’ve been window shopping a stick burner for a year, I don’t have a good excuse for needing one other than I like the idea of the clean smoke on an offset. I think it’s heavier steel, but not sure it’s worth the $250.  Based on your experience I wouldn’t be afraid of modding it to a reverse flow, just not sure if use it much considering the time to tend this versus the egg.  Ok - done hijacking your thread. Thanks for sharing your experience as it’s been very helpful to me.

I bet that's 3/16. It's definitely not a thin tin smoker by the looks of it. It might be a Brinkmann Stillwater? It also looks wider and longer than my smoker which would be a big benefit. I think the Stillwater's were around $500 new if that's a Stillwater model. He's maybe not too far off asking price. If you're not attached or "need it" I'd see if he'd go down on the price.

Look to see if he has any pictures of the inside of the firebox and see what you're working with. Make sure it's not rusting out and it's still workable. Water and ash can eat away at the steel pretty quick if not taken care off. 

Photo Egg

FarmingPhD said:

I was trying to find a way to determine age by serial #4590 on this one, but not much info on a quick search.  I’ve been window shopping a stick burner for a year, I don’t have a good excuse for needing one other than I like the idea of the clean smoke on an offset. I think it’s heavier steel, but not sure it’s worth the $250.  Based on your experience I wouldn’t be afraid of modding it to a reverse flow, just not sure if use it much considering the time to tend this versus the egg.  Ok - done hijacking your thread. Thanks for sharing your experience as it’s been very helpful to me.

My unsolicited advice…

1. Haggle the price down. Someone who takes no time to clean an item before posting it for sale just wants it gone! Don’t be afraid to start low. Wave the cash.

2. Before you spend time and money fulling restoring it, cook on it a couple times. See if it’s worth your effort to restore. If not, clean it up and resell it.

3. Don’t count on being able to convert this to reverse flow. There is not that much room to start with in a smaller pipe smoker to move air back and forth.

4. Lastly, it’s only about the price of an average pair of your wife’s shoes…Ha Ha

Photo Egg

…

Is this compensating for draft issues or something else?