OT - Mass shootings and gun control - OT

JohnInCarolina

Nothing to see here, obviously.  I'm sure we could do the same with cars or knives...

GATraveller

I think it's time we legislate common sense.

HeavyG

I guess she thinks everyone is as skilled with using their feet as weapons as Bruce Lee??

YukonRon

JohnInCarolina said:

YukonRon said:

Bottom line in all this BS, a man took weapons into a casino, which are believed to have some of the best security available, used modified high powered weapons, to kill as many as he could, prior to allegedly committing suicide.

Weapons and tactics are secondary, the issue is the mentally insane and fanatical extremists.

Eliminate the flow of fire arms, something else, perhaps even more deadly, will be used in their place. Oklahoma City, Boston, NY, DC, Atlanta, and churches here in the south, are all the evidence one needs to understand.

I love my country, but violence is woven throughout our history and culture. 

With the best protection on earth, people are not immune to deranged individuals who have a plan. We have had many examples, in our history, of presidents who have been shot.

No individual is safe, but the odds are closer for your survival if you have a way to fight back.

I'm sure things would've worked out much better in LV had more of the crowd been armed and started indiscriminately shooting back at the hotel.  

@JohnInCarolina  

Nobody said, or implied, the situation would have been mitigated in LV if the people were armed. To try and attach my post to your response is the case of reading and not  understanding. You are a smart man, I have no doubt, but you are reaching right now with that comment.

Love you brother, the point I was making is nobody is safe, anywhere. Those that depend on others to protect them and not doing anything to protect themselves, are making a dangerous assumption. You are well aware of this.

Nothing can protect anyone 100% of the time. Our history will prove that. Those that are armed or even understand what to do, in these situations, at least have a chance. I prefer the chance. 

You would too, if your wife and two daughters were at risk. You will do whatever it takes, I know this of you.

Sorry, John, your response was, from what I have come to expect, beneath you. You are much better than that. I know this.

Peace

Legume

Wtf Argentina?

SciAggie

@Legume I'm googling - what about Argentina?

stlcharcoal

SkySaw said:

. It's obvious that basic steps like stopping the sale of high capacity magazines and semi-automatic weapons would reduce deaths, 

They did that.......1994-2004.  It was called the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB).  It proved to have ZERO effect, except from driving the price up on pre-ban guns and mags.

HeavyG

YukonRon said:

JohnInCarolina said:

YukonRon said:

Bottom line in all this BS, a man took weapons into a casino, which are believed to have some of the best security available, used modified high powered weapons, to kill as many as he could, prior to allegedly committing suicide.

Weapons and tactics are secondary, the issue is the mentally insane and fanatical extremists.

Eliminate the flow of fire arms, something else, perhaps even more deadly, will be used in their place. Oklahoma City, Boston, NY, DC, Atlanta, and churches here in the south, are all the evidence one needs to understand.

I love my country, but violence is woven throughout our history and culture. 

With the best protection on earth, people are not immune to deranged individuals who have a plan. We have had many examples, in our history, of presidents who have been shot.

No individual is safe, but the odds are closer for your survival if you have a way to fight back.

I'm sure things would've worked out much better in LV had more of the crowd been armed and started indiscriminately shooting back at the hotel.  

@JohnInCarolina  

Nobody said, or implied, the situation would have been mitigated in LV if the people were armed. To try and attach my post to your response is the case of reading and not  understanding. You are a smart man, I have no doubt, but you are reaching right now with that comment.

Love you brother, the point I was making is nobody is safe, anywhere. Those that depend on others to protect them and not doing anything to protect themselves, are making a dangerous assumption. You are well aware of this.

Nothing can protect anyone 100% of the time. Our history will prove that. Those that are armed or even understand what to do, in these situations, at least have a chance. I prefer the chance. 

You would too, if your wife and two daughters were at risk. You will do whatever it takes, I know this of you.

Sorry, John, your response was, from what I have come to expect, beneath you. You are much better than that. I know this.

Peace

Actually the NRA has long held:

“The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”  - NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre 


So...by extension...

stlcharcoal

JohnInCarolina said:

Nothing to see here, obviously.  I'm sure we could do the same with cars or knives...

COME ON!!!!  Interesting how they changed the axis on this??  Starting at -20??

Start that red line at 0,0 and it's going to look a lot different.

stlcharcoal

JohnInCarolina said:

Nothing to see here, obviously.  I'm sure we could do the same with cars or knives...

Here's the original version of that chart.......before someone with a anti-gun agenda screwed with the axis, put the red line on it, and deleted a bunch of points.  Compare where Argentina is on both to see the how bad they screwed with it.

YukonRon

I have a NRA ball cap. I tell everyone it stands for: "No Republicans Anymore."

JohnInCarolina

YukonRon said:

JohnInCarolina said:

YukonRon said:

Bottom line in all this BS, a man took weapons into a casino, which are believed to have some of the best security available, used modified high powered weapons, to kill as many as he could, prior to allegedly committing suicide.

Weapons and tactics are secondary, the issue is the mentally insane and fanatical extremists.

Eliminate the flow of fire arms, something else, perhaps even more deadly, will be used in their place. Oklahoma City, Boston, NY, DC, Atlanta, and churches here in the south, are all the evidence one needs to understand.

I love my country, but violence is woven throughout our history and culture. 

With the best protection on earth, people are not immune to deranged individuals who have a plan. We have had many examples, in our history, of presidents who have been shot.

No individual is safe, but the odds are closer for your survival if you have a way to fight back.

I'm sure things would've worked out much better in LV had more of the crowd been armed and started indiscriminately shooting back at the hotel.  

@JohnInCarolina  

Nobody said, or implied, the situation would have been mitigated in LV if the people were armed. To try and attach my post to your response is the case of reading and not  understanding. You are a smart man, I have no doubt, but you are reaching right now with that comment.

Love you brother, the point I was making is nobody is safe, anywhere. Those that depend on others to protect them and not doing anything to protect themselves, are making a dangerous assumption. You are well aware of this.

Nothing can protect anyone 100% of the time. Our history will prove that. Those that are armed or even understand what to do, in these situations, at least have a chance. I prefer the chance. 

You would too, if your wife and two daughters were at risk. You will do whatever it takes, I know this of you.

Sorry, John, your response was, from what I have come to expect, beneath you. You are much better than that. I know this.

Peace

Fine to make that point Ron, I just don't happen to agree with it.  It also seemed out of place in the context of what happened in LV, where I hope we can all agree that more guns on the ground in front of the stage wouldn't have made much difference.  TIA.

JohnInCarolina

stlcharcoal said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Nothing to see here, obviously.  I'm sure we could do the same with cars or knives...

Here's the original version of that chart.......before someone with a anti-gun agenda screwed with the axis, put the red line on it, and deleted a bunch of points.  Compare where Argentina is on both to see the how bad they screwed with it.

The original plot draws comparison between the US and modern industrialized countries.   The point is not just where we are on the vertical axis, but how much of an outlier we are on the horizontal.   But yes, you are right, it's good to know that we're so much better off than countries that are literally war zones.  And of course, Brazil.

BPFBGE

The number of gun deaths is completely skewed. about 60% of gun deaths in the USA are suicide.

Hans61

BPFBGE said:

The number of gun deaths is completely skewed. about 60% of gun deaths in the USA are suicide.

Welcome to the conversation and the forum 

stlcharcoal

JohnInCarolina said:

The original plot draws comparison between the US and modern industrialized countries.   The point is not just where we are on the vertical axis, but how much of an outlier we are on the horizontal.   But yes, you are right, it's good to know that we're so much better off than countries that are literally war zones.  And of course, Brazil.

Exactly.....we have 5-10 times as many guns.  One could say that as why we're NOT a "war zone", or why are they not exponentially higher on the vertical.  Take suicide off that chart and then see what happens.

If there's one thing I learn from college and grad school BUSINESS statistic classes, it's that you can stretch and skew charts however you want.  It's all still true, but you can make them look how you want to. 

billt01

HeavyG said:

YukonRon said:

JohnInCarolina said:

YukonRon said:

Bottom line in all this BS, a man took weapons into a casino, which are believed to have some of the best security available, used modified high powered weapons, to kill as many as he could, prior to allegedly committing suicide.

Weapons and tactics are secondary, the issue is the mentally insane and fanatical extremists.

Eliminate the flow of fire arms, something else, perhaps even more deadly, will be used in their place. Oklahoma City, Boston, NY, DC, Atlanta, and churches here in the south, are all the evidence one needs to understand.

I love my country, but violence is woven throughout our history and culture. 

With the best protection on earth, people are not immune to deranged individuals who have a plan. We have had many examples, in our history, of presidents who have been shot.

No individual is safe, but the odds are closer for your survival if you have a way to fight back.

I'm sure things would've worked out much better in LV had more of the crowd been armed and started indiscriminately shooting back at the hotel.  

@JohnInCarolina  

Nobody said, or implied, the situation would have been mitigated in LV if the people were armed. To try and attach my post to your response is the case of reading and not  understanding. You are a smart man, I have no doubt, but you are reaching right now with that comment.

Love you brother, the point I was making is nobody is safe, anywhere. Those that depend on others to protect them and not doing anything to protect themselves, are making a dangerous assumption. You are well aware of this.

Nothing can protect anyone 100% of the time. Our history will prove that. Those that are armed or even understand what to do, in these situations, at least have a chance. I prefer the chance. 

You would too, if your wife and two daughters were at risk. You will do whatever it takes, I know this of you.

Sorry, John, your response was, from what I have come to expect, beneath you. You are much better than that. I know this.

Peace

Actually the NRA has long held:

“The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”  - NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre 


So...by extension...

So what happens when the bad guy stops himself with his own gun?

other than being a coward, what is that?

pgprescott

billt01 said:

HeavyG said:

YukonRon said:

JohnInCarolina said:

YukonRon said:

Bottom line in all this BS, a man took weapons into a casino, which are believed to have some of the best security available, used modified high powered weapons, to kill as many as he could, prior to allegedly committing suicide.

Weapons and tactics are secondary, the issue is the mentally insane and fanatical extremists.

Eliminate the flow of fire arms, something else, perhaps even more deadly, will be used in their place. Oklahoma City, Boston, NY, DC, Atlanta, and churches here in the south, are all the evidence one needs to understand.

I love my country, but violence is woven throughout our history and culture. 

With the best protection on earth, people are not immune to deranged individuals who have a plan. We have had many examples, in our history, of presidents who have been shot.

No individual is safe, but the odds are closer for your survival if you have a way to fight back.

I'm sure things would've worked out much better in LV had more of the crowd been armed and started indiscriminately shooting back at the hotel.  

@JohnInCarolina  

Nobody said, or implied, the situation would have been mitigated in LV if the people were armed. To try and attach my post to your response is the case of reading and not  understanding. You are a smart man, I have no doubt, but you are reaching right now with that comment.

Love you brother, the point I was making is nobody is safe, anywhere. Those that depend on others to protect them and not doing anything to protect themselves, are making a dangerous assumption. You are well aware of this.

Nothing can protect anyone 100% of the time. Our history will prove that. Those that are armed or even understand what to do, in these situations, at least have a chance. I prefer the chance. 

You would too, if your wife and two daughters were at risk. You will do whatever it takes, I know this of you.

Sorry, John, your response was, from what I have come to expect, beneath you. You are much better than that. I know this.

Peace

Actually the NRA has long held:

“The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”  - NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre 


So...by extension...

So what happens when the bad guy stops himself with his own gun?

other than being a coward, what is that?

He only shot himself because there were guys with guns on the other side of the door and he knew it. Scum!

SkySaw

stlcharcoal said:

JohnInCarolina said:

The original plot draws comparison between the US and modern industrialized countries.   The point is not just where we are on the vertical axis, but how much of an outlier we are on the horizontal.   But yes, you are right, it's good to know that we're so much better off than countries that are literally war zones.  And of course, Brazil.

Exactly.....we have 5-10 times as many guns.  One could say that as why we're NOT a "war zone", or why are they not exponentially higher on the vertical.  Take suicide off that chart and then see what happens.

If there's one thing I learn from college and grad school BUSINESS statistic classes, it's that you can stretch and skew charts however you want.  It's all still true, but you can make them look how you want to. 

You should have paid more attention in business school stats, because none of what you are saying about those graphs or about statistics is informed in any way. It would be like me saying your wood would burn longer if you didn't already pre-burn it before selling it. Uninformed criticism of statistics is just propagating the bizarre belief in the idea that there is no such thing as knowledge. 

And why take out the suicide stats? Most suicides are committed by people who need and want help. The fact that in the US they are more successful in killing themselves is yet another indictment of guns.

JohnInCarolina

BPFBGE said:

The number of gun deaths is completely skewed. about 60% of gun deaths in the USA are suicide.

Heckofa first post!

billt01

SkySaw said:

stlcharcoal said:

JohnInCarolina said:

The original plot draws comparison between the US and modern industrialized countries.   The point is not just where we are on the vertical axis, but how much of an outlier we are on the horizontal.   But yes, you are right, it's good to know that we're so much better off than countries that are literally war zones.  And of course, Brazil.

Exactly.....we have 5-10 times as many guns.  One could say that as why we're NOT a "war zone", or why are they not exponentially higher on the vertical.  Take suicide off that chart and then see what happens.

If there's one thing I learn from college and grad school BUSINESS statistic classes, it's that you can stretch and skew charts however you want.  It's all still true, but you can make them look how you want to. 

You should have paid more attention in business school stats, because none of what you are saying about those graphs or about statistics is informed in any way. It would be like me saying your wood would burn longer if you didn't already pre-burn it before selling it. Uninformed criticism of statistics is just propagating the bizarre belief in the idea that there is no such thing as knowledge. 

And why take out the suicide stats? Most suicides are committed by people who need and want help. The fact that in the US they are more successful in killing themselves is yet another indictment of guns.

Careful...People don't need guns to get the job done..

If we we are indeed 60%, then its quite obvious guns would not stop people from "offing" themselves...




Update...

Here are new figures (still outline the above dated data).

https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm

johnnyp

Wow, good points everyone.  I've really changed mind and refined my opinion. 

billt01

johnnyp said:

Wow, good points everyone.  I've really changed mind and refined my opinion. 

@johnnyp

agreed...

Focker

I'M SORRY, CAN'T HEAR RIGHT NOW...ON A PLAYDATE!!!

Hans61

johnnyp said:

Wow, good points everyone.  I've really changed mind and refined my opinion. 

Did you take a look at some of this stuff or were you being sarcastic because you think you know everything already? 

johnnyp

Hans61 said:

johnnyp said:

Wow, good points everyone.  I've really changed mind and refined my opinion. 

Did you take a look at some of this stuff or were you being sarcastic because you think you know everything already? 

I read the entire thread. 

I'm far from knowing everything.

johnnyp

but to be clear, I was being very sarcastic

Hans61

johnnyp said:

but to be clear, I was being very sarcastic

fishlessman

  all the training and no plans for someone breaking a fixed window and using it to shoot from.....pretty sure this will now happen again and again, sorta like hillary showing her shadow, the old ground hog shows up everyday now. welcome to groundhog day.  my neighbor was there for this, another woman next town over is dead, sure this hit every nook in the country

HeavyG

We can always rely on Brother Pat to have the real diagnosis of the problem.

https://youtu.be/etOa8-pFow4