OT - Mass shootings and gun control - OT

HeavyG

bgebrent said:

HeavyG said:

bgebrent said:

JohnInCarolina said:

bgebrent said:

JohnInCarolina said:

bgebrent said:

JohnInCarolina said:

g8golfer said:

Honestly how can it be fixed? I watched videos of the shooting online and it put chills on me. I own a AR15 and several other guns but don’t know what we can do to fix this issue. 

I don't know man... not much, realistically, at least not where politics is in our country right now.  

Sandy Hook was really hard to process, especially as the father of two young girls.  I hope we never again see anything remotely like that, but this was pretty friggin terrible.

I just don't understand how someone could do that.  Can't process it.    All those people, just there to enjoy some music, none of them known by the shooter.  How do you fire round after round of bullets into a sea of innocent people, for like five minutes straight?  It's insane.  Pure, unadulterated evil.  

Politics should be irrelevant if you own a brain.  You do.  Anyone who thinks this is anything beyond a mental health issue or on rare occasion domestic terrorism, which this likely isn't, needs to reconsider.  It's hard to process John but briefly.  It's not anything "evil", or Satan or any other **** people assign it.  It's F'd in the head mental illness.  You need to understand how some sick person does this.  No science can do that for us and therein lies the rub.

Brent with all due respect I don't think we really know enough of the facts yet to draw real sound conclusions about the cause/motive of this particular incident.  I suspect we'll learn quite a bit more in the days and weeks ahead.

John, with all due respect, I agree.  But I also know no human does this outside of the realm of mental illness historically.  There's more to learn,  can't blame the guns, only the sick shooter.

Was Timothy McVeigh mentally ill?  Not according to people who examined him.

We seek answers to these kind of things in mental illness because the alternatives are too difficult to process. 

JC!  Are you kidding???  I've operated on McVeigh's victims.  He was sick!  Please forward me his medical records that prove he wasn't sick.  Why do you choose to beat this drum.  I like how you dig up the dark hole of we can never know.  Not what any scientist worth his weight is spit ever does.  You would probably believe the LV wasn't sick because his blood pressure was normal, right?  Open your mind.

Was little Timmy found to be mentally incompetent and unable to stand trial?

Did our system judge him to insane and not responsible for his actions and thus just sentence him to a psych ward for life?

Our system of JP sentenced him to death.  Don't recall anyone calling him "little Timmy" other than you.  You think he was sane?  Do you disagree with the sentence "little Timmy" got?  You're expertise in mental illness is what?

I tend to believe that anyone that kills another for reasons other than self defense must be a little crazy. But that is just my opinion - not a legal determination.
 
It's not up to you or me to determine his mental status. Our system has provisions for dealing with folks specifically determined to be mentally incompetent by the appropriate medical professionals. McVeigh was not judged to be mentally impaired. 

I do disagree with the sentence as I don't believe in the death penalty so I would have preferred he just spend the remainder of his life in prison.

DoubleEgger

bgebrent said:

DoubleEgger said:

bgebrent said:

DoubleEgger said:

Interesting that so many people are clinging to their 2nd amendment rights today while demonizing NFL players for exercising their 1st amendment rights. 

Off target Michael.  Glad Fox will not broadcast the NA.  Keep this focused on guns.

I beg to differ. I have seen so much right wing hypocrisy today that it's unbelievable. 

I haven't watched the mainstream bs you apparently choose to so I cannot relate.  

You don't have to look past this forum 

HeavyG

Focker

bgebrent said:

DoubleEgger said:

Interesting that so many people are clinging to their 2nd amendment rights today while demonizing NFL players for exercising their 1st amendment rights. 

Off target Michael.  Glad Fox will not broadcast the NA.  Keep this focused on guns.

"Kneeler" fan can't even hit the broad side of a barn.

DoubleEgger

"Nothing we can do".... yeah right. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Toxarch

More laws is what we need. Look how well that worked on drugs.

Eoin

From a UK perspective, our gun laws are super strict. Apart from parts of Scotland, we also don't have the wide open spaces for hunting to be a mass market activity, so the justification for gun ownership is smaller. Gun deaths are extremely low and this does not translate directly into other forms of violence as our murder and suicide rates are also low. Our 'major' terrorist incidents also cause significantly fewer deaths than mass shootings in the US. Bombs may be effective, but they are hard to make and transport, so use is infrequent and then they often fail to go off. Knife attacks and the use of vehicles cause limited casualties, if the London attackers earlier this year had been in posession of guns, the casualties would have been much higher.

This isn't an opinion, it's just a fact that widespread gun ownership creates more and easier opportunities for people to kill other people / themselves. Whether or not this is a justifiction for gun control is a separate argument.

Our condolences to all involved in the recent events in LV.

billt01

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

JohnInCarolina

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

JohnInCarolina

Good study here exploring the links between mental illness and gun violence:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

The story, as with many things in this world, is not so black and white but rather a lot of shades of gray.

billt01

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

JohnInCarolina

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

Mickey

Have a Glock and a couple of Sig's. Gun Control is not adding another Glock for the 4th gun.  

JohnInCarolina

HeavyG said:

Pretty accurate!

DoubleEgger

Toxarch said:

More laws is what we need. Look how well that worked on drugs.

Isn't enforcing the laws already on the books the mantra of the right? Trump is in the NRA's pocket so he just abolished the law rather than enforce it. 

billt01

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

since we are trading jabs this morning..

Thinking signing a piece a paper into legislation to think it will change the outcome of someone who does not care if he lives or dies..

i can read

but you can't comprehend ....

JohnInCarolina

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

since we are trading jabs this morning..

Thinking signing a piece a paper into legislation to think it will change the outcome of a someone who does not care if he lives or dies..

i can read

but you can't comprehend ....

Please show me where I indicated that guns are the only problem or factor here.  Simply put: I didn't.  Observing that we have more guns per capita than any other country and also more gun deaths, accidents, etc., is not equivalent to calling for the elimination of all guns from the hands of Americans.  Like I wrote above, reading is fundamental.

DoubleEgger

I'd love to hear someone on the right's explanation as to why Trump would eliminate a rule to limit the availability of firearms to the mentally ill. If you are getting disability checks from the Feds because you are mentally ill, you don't have any business owning a gun. 

billt01

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

since we are trading jabs this morning..

Thinking signing a piece a paper into legislation to think it will change the outcome of a someone who does not care if he lives or dies..

i can read

but you can't comprehend ....

Please show me where I indicated that guns are the only problem or factor here.  Simply put: I didn't.  Observing that we have more guns per capita than any other country and also more gun deaths, accidents, etc., is not equivalent to calling for the elimination of all guns from the hands of Americans.  Like I wrote above, reading is fundamental.

and like I wrote above..if you have more of anything; statistically, you will be the leader in all aspects of any equation.

My point, this is not a gun problem, it is not a gun law problem, it is not a democrat or republican problem. These circumstances (problems) have no solution.

And the people who think they can solve it; especially with legislation, cant see the forest due to the trees.  

DoubleEgger

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

since we are trading jabs this morning..

Thinking signing a piece a paper into legislation to think it will change the outcome of a someone who does not care if he lives or dies..

i can read

but you can't comprehend ....

Please show me where I indicated that guns are the only problem or factor here.  Simply put: I didn't.  Observing that we have more guns per capita than any other country and also more gun deaths, accidents, etc., is not equivalent to calling for the elimination of all guns from the hands of Americans.  Like I wrote above, reading is fundamental.

and like I wrote above..if you have more of anything; statistically, you will be the leader in all aspects of any equation.

My point, this is not a gun problem, it is not a gun law problem, it is not a democrat or republican problem. These circumstances (problems) have no solution.

And the people who think they can solve it; especially with legislation, cant see the forest due to the trees.  

There's no "solution" because it's a white guy. The right is full of "solutions" when the perpetrator is of Middle Eastern decent. 

TN_Egger

The Bowling Green Massacre.  How was it prevented?

Also...who goes first - Butch or Orgeron?

NPHuskerFL

I'd gladly relinquish all my firearms (some dating back before my Grandfather's time) to ATF or other entity if it would guarantee an end to Americans and others dying by firearm violence. Would you could you imagine a world without needless murder? Yes I know a dr. Seuss and John Lennon corny mashup. But, really could you imagine?  Sadly Americans have been killing each other as long as this sort of discussion of disarming America has existed. I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel on this issue. It seems we have difficulty even identifying mental illness. And then when it is identified it seems to slip through the cracks because of HIPAA laws.

https://youtu.be/DVg2EJvvlF8

billt01

DoubleEgger said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

since we are trading jabs this morning..

Thinking signing a piece a paper into legislation to think it will change the outcome of a someone who does not care if he lives or dies..

i can read

but you can't comprehend ....

Please show me where I indicated that guns are the only problem or factor here.  Simply put: I didn't.  Observing that we have more guns per capita than any other country and also more gun deaths, accidents, etc., is not equivalent to calling for the elimination of all guns from the hands of Americans.  Like I wrote above, reading is fundamental.

and like I wrote above..if you have more of anything; statistically, you will be the leader in all aspects of any equation.

My point, this is not a gun problem, it is not a gun law problem, it is not a democrat or republican problem. These circumstances (problems) have no solution.

And the people who think they can solve it; especially with legislation, cant see the forest due to the trees.  

There's no "solution" because it's a white guy. The right is full of "solutions" when the perpetrator is of Middle Eastern decent. 

that statement makes no sense...

If one is black, white, yellow, brown, pink with purple polkadots and wants to cause harm to many people with a gun or a butter knife, one can do it.

There is not solution to it either (you cannot solve it with legislation).

The ONLY thing you can do is protect you and yours with the same level of defense the average criminal is equipping himself with.

In most cases, that'd be a gun.

Killit_and_Grillit

DoubleEgger said:

If you are getting disability checks from the Feds because you are mentally ill, you don't have any business owning a gun. 

@DoubleEgger that was a big concern for Soldiers when Obama suggested just that years ago. 

The VA will slap a "PTSD" sticker on anyone who had any kind of combat trauma and needed to see a counselor or took some anti anxiety meds...and classify them the same as someone who was truly Looney Tunes and mentally ill. 

I had both types of Soldiers as a leader in the Army. That law would disqualify both to own a gun. One absolutely shouldn't have one. The other absolutely should. 

This is the problem with blanket legislation. And you and I know by the time that law gets chopped up by politicians it will have so many loopholes that ONLY the people we didn't want having them would get a pass. 

Edit: We need to get your SMG with my SMG for a little play date. I'm sure they'll get along fine

YukonRon

TN_Egger said:

The Bowling Green Massacre.  How was it prevented?

Also...who goes first - Butch or Orgeron?

Butch will have lasted longer as HC, however, I think he makes the season, and is notified with a couple games to go, he will not be back next season.
Ed? Who knows? The folks down there fired a 10 win coach, and national champion, then hired that guy. It could be after his next loss.
Petrino is looking to leave Louisville.......

billt01

Killit_and_Grillit said:

DoubleEgger said:

If you are getting disability checks from the Feds because you are mentally ill, you don't have any business owning a gun. 

@DoubleEgger that was a big concern for Soldiers when Obama suggested just that years ago. 

The VA will slap a "PTSD" sticker on anyone who had any kind of combat trauma and needed to see a counselor or took some anti anxiety meds...and classify them the same as someone who was truly Looney Tunes and mentally ill. 

I had both types of Soldiers as a leader in the Army. That law would disqualify both to own a gun. One absolutely shouldn't have one. The other absolutely should. 

This is the problem with blanket legislation. And you and I know by the time that law gets chopped up by politicians it will have so many loopholes that ONLY the people we didn't want having them would get a pass. 

Edit: We need to get your SMG with my SMG for a little play date. I'm sure they'll get along fine

and they both probably have weapons today...

Despite legislation..

DoubleEgger

Killit_and_Grillit said:

DoubleEgger said:

If you are getting disability checks from the Feds because you are mentally ill, you don't have any business owning a gun. 

@DoubleEgger that was a big concern for Soldiers when Obama suggested just that years ago. 

The VA will slap a "PTSD" sticker on anyone who had any kind of combat trauma and needed to see a counselor or took some anti anxiety meds...and classify them the same as someone who was truly Looney Tunes and mentally ill. 

I had both types of Soldiers as a leader in the Army. That law would disqualify both to own a gun. One absolutely shouldn't have one. The other absolutely should. 

This is the problem with blanket legislation. And you and I know by the time that law gets chopped up by politicians it will have so many loopholes that ONLY the people we didn't want having them would get a pass. 

That's not what the bill was about. It was adding people to the "list" that are getting disability checks from the Feds for mental illness and are deemed not to be able to handle their own finances. 

As Trump likes to say the "optics" of killing that rule isn't very good. 

billt01

YukonRon said:

TN_Egger said:

The Bowling Green Massacre.  How was it prevented?

Also...who goes first - Butch or Orgeron?

Butch will have lasted longer as HC, however, I think he makes the season, and is notified with a couple games to go, he will not be back next season.
Ed? Who knows? The folks down there fired a 10 win coach, and national champion, then hired that guy. It could be after his next loss.
Petrino is looking to leave Louisville.......

thanks @YukonRon

Bye Butch...

Killit_and_Grillit

@DoubleEgger but people who were getting VA benefits (which is federal disability check) and is considered a mental disability were flagged under a write in. 

Thats what im saying about how the law gets chopped up after it's written. You can hide a lot in 700 pages of BS. 

DoubleEgger

billt01 said:

DoubleEgger said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

billt01 said:

JohnInCarolina said:

shtgunal3 said:

@JohnInCarolina I'm not here to argue either side. All I'm saying is taking or outlawing MY guns isn't going to solve anything.  All that will do is hurt this responsible law abiding citizen and his family. 

And for what it's worth, I don't have any of the AR-15 or semi-auto weapons. Just a few shotguns, rifles, and handguns. 

Again, carry on.

I didn't say it would solve anything.  I just said that *in general*,  which does not mean you *in particular*, fewer guns translates into fewer gun deaths, accidents, and etc.  

and fewer cars would lead to fewer auto accidents..

Annnnnnd..

Fewer knives would lead to less knife deaths...

Annnnd.....

etc...etc...

If you really believe cars or knives are just like guns, then good luck to you.  

if you believe guns are the problem, good luck to you.

http://abc13.com/news/carnage-on-the-road-truck-attack-kills-84-in-france/1427336/

Reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong suit.

since we are trading jabs this morning..

Thinking signing a piece a paper into legislation to think it will change the outcome of a someone who does not care if he lives or dies..

i can read

but you can't comprehend ....

Please show me where I indicated that guns are the only problem or factor here.  Simply put: I didn't.  Observing that we have more guns per capita than any other country and also more gun deaths, accidents, etc., is not equivalent to calling for the elimination of all guns from the hands of Americans.  Like I wrote above, reading is fundamental.

and like I wrote above..if you have more of anything; statistically, you will be the leader in all aspects of any equation.

My point, this is not a gun problem, it is not a gun law problem, it is not a democrat or republican problem. These circumstances (problems) have no solution.

And the people who think they can solve it; especially with legislation, cant see the forest due to the trees.  

There's no "solution" because it's a white guy. The right is full of "solutions" when the perpetrator is of Middle Eastern decent. 

that statement makes no sense...

If one is black, white, yellow, brown, pink with purple polkadots and wants to cause harm to many people with a gun or a butter knife, one can do it.

There is not solution to it either (you cannot solve it with legislation).

The ONLY thing you can do is protect you and yours with the same level of defense the average criminal is equipping himself with.

In most cases, that'd be a gun.

So you are against Trump's wall and the bans on people entering this country?