We drive on the left and health care is free.

JohnInCarolina

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

Eoin

Foghorn said:

Is it possible for Chelsea and Man City to both lose?  And is morally OK to cheer for that?

It's a dilemma that certain pairings of teams provide for most football fans. Of course it's morally acceptable, hating certain teams is an integral part of the game.

HeavyG

I always kinda thought that the biggest "welfare queens" are the billionaire sports team owners that always convince the suckers taxpayers to pay for their stadiums/ballparks/arenas.

And the rubes taxpayers fall for it over and over and over...

pgprescott

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

pgprescott

HeavyG said:

I always kinda thought that the biggest "welfare queens" are the billionaire sports team owners that always convince the suckers taxpayers to pay for their stadiums/ballparks/arenas.

And the rubes taxpayers fall for it over and over and over...



Same as any other big business that gets all the goodies. I don't disagree, but the tax policy is legal.

JohnInCarolina

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

pgprescott

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

JohnInCarolina

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

pgprescott

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

What's your point? I thought you argued that we didn't help people with access to education? What is the criteria to be considered financial aide? Grants? Scholarships? What levels are the individuals receiving the aide? As usual, there are many variables. You of course know this. The universities love the aide programs, because thy artificially drive up demand for their goods and services. What are you saying?We help 75% of our population with education? I thought we we a heartless bunch? That number is not at all shocking to me. You neglect to mention that the aide is graduated at various levels based upon "need".

CPFC1905

Foghorn said:

Is it possible for Chelsea and Man City to both lose?  And is morally OK to cheer for that?

Not if playing each other,  but otherwise, yes : crack-on and fill your boots, old stick.

JohnInCarolina

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

What's your point? I thought you argued that we didn't help people with access to education? What is the criteria to be considered financial aide? Grants? Scholarships? What levels are the individuals receiving the aide? As usual, there are many variables. You of course know this. The universities love the aide programs, because thy artificially drive up demand for their goods and services. What are you saying?We help 75% of our population with education? I thought we we a heartless bunch? That number is not at all shocking to me. You neglect to mention that the aide is graduated at various levels based upon "need".

The original comment that launched this was comparing what we ask families to pay for college compared to the U.K.  You made the claim that here in the US, the poor don't pay for college, while the working class pay "full freight."  Your assertion was simply wrong.

CPFC1905

Quick question,  do you guys know what a courgette is?

pgprescott

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

What's your point? I thought you argued that we didn't help people with access to education? What is the criteria to be considered financial aide? Grants? Scholarships? What levels are the individuals receiving the aide? As usual, there are many variables. You of course know this. The universities love the aide programs, because thy artificially drive up demand for their goods and services. What are you saying?We help 75% of our population with education? I thought we we a heartless bunch? That number is not at all shocking to me. You neglect to mention that the aide is graduated at various levels based upon "need".

The original comment that launched this was comparing what we ask families to pay for college compared to the U.K.  You made the claim that here in the US, the poor don't pay for college, while the working class pay "full freight."  Your assertion was simply wrong.

What amount do persons living in Govt' housing and receiving welfare pay for college on average John? 

Foghorn

CPFC1905 said:

Foghorn said:

Is it possible for Chelsea and Man City to both lose?  And is morally OK to cheer for that?

Not if playing each other,  but otherwise, yes : crack-on and fill your boots, old stick.

Once Man City scored I found myself in the unusual position of cheering for Chelsea.  

The Manchester derbies are going to be crackers this season.

Legume

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

What's your point? I thought you argued that we didn't help people with access to education? What is the criteria to be considered financial aide? Grants? Scholarships? What levels are the individuals receiving the aide? As usual, there are many variables. You of course know this. The universities love the aide programs, because thy artificially drive up demand for their goods and services. What are you saying?We help 75% of our population with education? I thought we we a heartless bunch? That number is not at all shocking to me. You neglect to mention that the aide is graduated at various levels based upon "need".

The original comment that launched this was comparing what we ask families to pay for college compared to the U.K.  You made the claim that here in the US, the poor don't pay for college, while the working class pay "full freight."  Your assertion was simply wrong.

What amount do persons living in Govt' housing and receiving welfare pay for college on average John? 

Has to be very low, on average, since the rate of those that make it to college has to be very low.

Eoin

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

What's your point? I thought you argued that we didn't help people with access to education? What is the criteria to be considered financial aide? Grants? Scholarships? What levels are the individuals receiving the aide? As usual, there are many variables. You of course know this. The universities love the aide programs, because thy artificially drive up demand for their goods and services. What are you saying?We help 75% of our population with education? I thought we we a heartless bunch? That number is not at all shocking to me. You neglect to mention that the aide is graduated at various levels based upon "need".

The original comment that launched this was comparing what we ask families to pay for college compared to the U.K.  You made the claim that here in the US, the poor don't pay for college, while the working class pay "full freight."  Your assertion was simply wrong.

In the UK, everyone pays the same for university and all get the same standard loan for the fees. Living costs are covered by a second loan, which is means tested as to the amount that can be borrowed. 

JohnInCarolina

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

pgprescott said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Eoin said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Most anti-welfare folks in the US have never met anyone actually on welfare.

The most anti welfare people I know are those who are in work and live in the same areas as welfare recipients. They are the people who resent others not working while they pay the bill (tax). The middle classes can generally afford the tax and are more inclined to be sympathetic. 

Most people here don't regard being 'on welfare' as living in social housing, receiving in work benefits or being wholly on benefits for a short period of time, rather people whose only income is welfare benefits for the long term.

You're in the U.K., right?

Yes, I'm sure our welfare system is a lot different to yours.

It is, the culture there is quite different as well, with the NHS and college and university access.  

I'm sure we have folks here who know people on welfare and who are anti welfare as a result.  I should have been more precise in stating that my belief is that most of them do not have friends or family members who are or have been on welfare.  I think that tends to influence your view on things.  TIA.

What do the poor pay for college access here? Nada. The wealthy and the working class pay full boat though.

I agree with the second part as it pertains to yourself. You are admittedly emotionally guided on this subject.

As usual, you have almost no idea what you're talking about.

maybe you could enlighten me.

You planning on sending your kids to college?

done with the first and the second is a sophomore at IA State

How much does a family need to have for an income for them to be solidly "working class" and not "poor," in your opinion?

I don't know, but I am apparently not in need of financial help. It's ridiculous. I don't have an extra 30-40k laying around every year. There are plenty that pay nothing or close to it. Go ahead and publish the chart. All I know is that the poor and minority communities in this country are given huge benefits toward higher education. This is an undeniable fact. This is not to cast judgement one way or the other upon the benefits, mind you. I merely point this out as you earlier suggest the contrary. I really take issue with those who take out loans and do not repay them though. It's theft, plain and simple.

I guess your kids are going to school with a bunch of poors, since 3/4 of the students are receiving financial aid there.

What's your point? I thought you argued that we didn't help people with access to education? What is the criteria to be considered financial aide? Grants? Scholarships? What levels are the individuals receiving the aide? As usual, there are many variables. You of course know this. The universities love the aide programs, because thy artificially drive up demand for their goods and services. What are you saying?We help 75% of our population with education? I thought we we a heartless bunch? That number is not at all shocking to me. You neglect to mention that the aide is graduated at various levels based upon "need".

The original comment that launched this was comparing what we ask families to pay for college compared to the U.K.  You made the claim that here in the US, the poor don't pay for college, while the working class pay "full freight."  Your assertion was simply wrong.

What amount do persons living in Govt' housing and receiving welfare pay for college on average John? 

Here you go.  Let me know when it dawns on you that folks who don't make very much are being asked to pay plenty:

lousubcap

@JohnInCarolina - is that chart a nationwide average or Duke's numbers?  Regardless, the data would be of more value if measured against some total cost/year value, at least for me.  

JohnInCarolina

lousubcap said:

@JohnInCarolina - is that chart a nationwide average or Duke's numbers?  Regardless, the data would be of more value if measured against some total cost/year value, at least for me.  

Those are Iowa State's numbers.

The bottom line, from my point of view, is that college in the US really isn't all that affordable for too many families.

da87

@JohnInCarolina, I don't think anyone can disagree with that statement - academic costs have become a huge burden.  As a result, I also can't disagree with @pgprescott that there is currently a "bubble" in the cost of college/university.  I just wish I had a solution to offer that would be executable in the real world and acceptable regardless of political beliefs and party affiliation...

We directly feel the financial impact of academic costs on a daily basis as we managed to fall into the undiscussed gap group - too well off (in someone's eyes, certainly not ours!) to receive aide, or even qualify for tax deductions, and yet not well off enough (no university buildings will be named after us) to not feel the huge bite of current college costs.  Those of us who carry the full cost of a private university as a family - and yes, it was our choice, along with our kids', that they attended the best school they could get into regardless of cost - now pay over $250K per child (plus books, travel costs, and interest on loans) and all in post tax dollars.  It is a very tough decision for every parent and student and one that comes with long term financial implications for both...  Now back to the regularly scheduled debate!

lousubcap

Thanks for the info- I will look at their advertised cost/year info.  Regarding affordable, I believe we have had a related discussion before.  It includes the easy money that is offered by the gubmint thru loan sharks, funneled thru the colleges.  I'm convinced that these $$ are a major contributor to the accelerated tuition increases over that past few decades.  Duke  (not picking here but have some data from 09-10) has increased around 44% (using 09-10 as the base) to today.  And I know that is the norm for all the private schools.  It's out-of-control.  
You are right about affordability- you will go into debt for quite some time.  Or you can shed all your assets before your kids Junior year of HS and drive your net worth as low as you can.  At least that enables the "need based only" options to come into play.  FWIW-

JohnInCarolina

da87 said:

@JohnInCarolina, I don't think anyone can disagree with that statement - academic costs have become a huge burden.  As a result, I also can't disagree with @pgprescott that there is currently a "bubble" in the cost of college/university.  I just wish I had a solution to offer that would be executable in the real world and acceptable regardless of political beliefs and party affiliation...

We directly feel the financial impact of academic costs on a daily basis as we managed to fall into the undiscussed gap group - too well off (in someone's eyes, certainly not ours!) to receive aide, or even qualify for tax deductions, and yet not well off enough (no university buildings will be named after us) to not feel the huge bite of current college costs.  Those of us who carry the full cost of a private university as a family - and yes, it was our choice, along with our kids', that they attended the best school they could get into regardless of cost - now pay over $250K per child (plus books, travel costs, and interest on loans) and all in post tax dollars.  It is a very tough decision for every parent and student and one that comes with long term financial implications for both...  Now back to the regularly scheduled debate!

It's way too expensive for almost *everyone*.  That's my point.  Even if you did qualify for financial aid, that only likely means a fraction of the costs would be covered for you.  Financial aid doesn't mean zero cost in the end.

There's this notion that there are a lot of folks out there getting "free rides", and it's just not true.  Heck, there are some people in the US who believe minority students never pay to attend college.  No wonder they end up resenting them.

Foghorn

It seems that US students are more likely to start college than UK students.  Although they finish college at roughly the same rates.

http://www.unit4.com/blog/2016/06/the-us-and-uk-comparing-higher-education-in-the-two-top-ranking-nations

So, it's hard to conclude that the UK policies really lead to more people getting a college education than our US system.

I also think that the student loan debt issue is overblown.  My wife and I had $350k in student loan debt when we finished.  We paid it off in 7 years.  For those years we didn't really raise our standard of living much from our student time.  Nobody deserves a 3000 sq ft house and a BMW the day they start their first real job.  

One has to plan reasonably and not take on any student loan debt that create an excessive burden.  Taking on $100k debt to get a private education and then be a public school teacher probably isn't a good plan.  

So it seems to me that if we are going to put resources into an effort to help the underprivileged have opportunities for college education we should focus on younger students and prepare them to have the skills to navigate the process and succeed when they get there.  

HeavyG

JohnInCarolina said:

lousubcap said:

@JohnInCarolina - is that chart a nationwide average or Duke's numbers?  Regardless, the data would be of more value if measured against some total cost/year value, at least for me.  

Those are Iowa State's numbers.

The bottom line, from my point of view, is that college in the US really isn't all that affordable for too many families.

Certainly nowhere near as affordable as it was a few decades ago.

JohnInCarolina

HeavyG said:

JohnInCarolina said:

lousubcap said:

@JohnInCarolina - is that chart a nationwide average or Duke's numbers?  Regardless, the data would be of more value if measured against some total cost/year value, at least for me.  

Those are Iowa State's numbers.

The bottom line, from my point of view, is that college in the US really isn't all that affordable for too many families.

Certainly nowhere near as affordable as it was a few decades ago.

I think the rates of increase in college tuition have roughly been double that of inflation over that window, yeah.

JohnInCarolina

Foghorn said:

It seems that US students are more likely to start college than UK students.  Although they finish college at roughly the same rates.

http://www.unit4.com/blog/2016/06/the-us-and-uk-comparing-higher-education-in-the-two-top-ranking-nations

So, it's hard to conclude that the UK policies really lead to more people getting a college education than our US system.

I don't think this was ever really the debate, at least not in my view.  

Teasing this aspect out here would require an understanding of why a smaller percentage of students in the U.K. are deciding to go to college.  Because for those who do, a much higher percentage end up graduating.

The downside for us in the US is that apparently a lot of students are paying for some amount of college education, at significant expense, and never getting a degree.

lousubcap

@JohnInCarolina said:
I think the rates of increase in college tuition have roughly been double that of inflation over that window, yeah.

From a post above:  "Duke  (not picking here but have some data from 09-10) has increased around 44% (using 09-10 as the base) to today.  And I know that is the norm for all the private schools."
Very accelerated-when is the rate gonna slow down or will it?

JohnInCarolina

lousubcap said:

@JohnInCarolina said:
I think the rates of increase in college tuition have roughly been double that of inflation over that window, yeah.

From a post above:  "Duke  (not picking here but have some data from 09-10) has increased around 44% (using 09-10 as the base) to today.  And I know that is the norm for all the private schools."
Very accelerated-when is the rate gonna slow down or will it?

I don't know but I have a hard time seeing it as possibly sustainable.  There is a general sense that the next bubble to burst is the student loan one.  I don't recall the precise details, but the amount of money out there in "owed" student loans in the US is astronomical.  And the rate of defaults is increasing. Something's gotta give.

lousubcap

You are spot-on with the bubble situation.  A contributor is the significant change in direction of the labor market over the past decade+ or so.  From my limited perspective it is becoming "dumbbell" shaped.  Low-paying jobs with little future on one end and highly skilled (and pricy education-wise) on the other.  The middle ground is struggling to maintain, never mind grow.  
The housing bubble burst when large numbers of owners started to default due to the easy and over-extended credit.  Don't know enough about the student-loan bail-out provisions but I'm sure they are getting stressed.  Won't end pretty...
I apologize for the left-turn that this thread has taken and all in well less than a fortnight.
I'm off this issue in this thread.  

Foghorn

JohnInCarolina said:

Foghorn said:

It seems that US students are more likely to start college than UK students.  Although they finish college at roughly the same rates.

http://www.unit4.com/blog/2016/06/the-us-and-uk-comparing-higher-education-in-the-two-top-ranking-nations

So, it's hard to conclude that the UK policies really lead to more people getting a college education than our US system.

I don't think this was ever really the debate, at least not in my view.  

Teasing this aspect out here would require an understanding of why a smaller percentage of students in the U.K. are deciding to go to college.  Because for those who do, a much higher percentage end up graduating.

The downside for us in the US is that apparently a lot of students are paying for some amount of college education, at significant expense, and never getting a degree.

I've known a lot of people (dozens) from my generation and from my kids' generation who started college and didn't finish - including my first roommate at Duke.  I've never known money to be the reason someone didn't finish.  

I'm not in favor of college costing a lot of money.  I'm currently paying over $40k/semester for two kids in private schools.  I wish it were cheaper.  

I'm just saying that spending federal tax dollars to supplement the cost of college doesn't solve the problem.   I'd be happy to pay more taxes if I'm contributing to actually solving the problem.  I'd be happy to pay more taxes just to pay off our federal debt.  Or for a program that is shown to improve college graduation rates among high risk students.  

With that said, I think we will always have kids who start college and don't finish.  They need to prove to themselves - or their parents - that college is not for them.  That's OK.  I don't know how to solve the problem of them taking on some debt burden during the year or two they spend in college.  The biggest problem in this area that there are some (fortunately not that many) expensive private schools that have very low admission standards and very low graduation rates.  Maybe some work could be done in that area, but paying for kids to go to schools like that is not the answer.