Wild Yeast

NPHuskerFL

@caliking Comm yeast
JK

SciAggie

blind99 said:

20stone said:

NPHuskerFL said:

@caliking That's where making two loaves pays in dividends. 

As a bonus, if you use 1kg of flour, the hydration math is a breeze. 

so do you folks have a basic rule of thumb recipe that gets you in the ballpark?  there's a long-running thread on the fresh loaf about the 123 ratio for starter : water : flour - is that reasonable?  also, how much weight of dough do you use for an average sized loaf? 

Here's my go-to rule. This makes a small loaf of bread.

400g total flour
75% hydration is my standard, so:
400 * .75 = 300g purified water
2% salt is my standard, so:
400 * .02 = 8g of salt
( salt should generally be 1.5-2.5% of the dough. It affects more than just taste and changes how quickly the dough rises. More salt will retard the dough fermentation)
I like to use about 20% starter:
400 * .2 = 80g of starter
(The amount of starter isn't carved in stone either. Use more in cool weather and less in warm weather. The amount can affect how long it takes the dough to rise. This amount fits my work schedule and the dough bulk proofs in about 6 hours)

If you want two loaves, use 800g of flour and do the math. Why did I settle on 400g? Because that's about the size loaf I'll eat before it goes bad. I learned by experience. Loaves made with 500g flour will fit in a small banneton, I just don't eat it all and prefer the smaller loaves. It's not a magic number for sure.

20stone

NPHuskerFL said:

@blind99 Most of my loaves are 1K

My recipes are 1K of flour, but that is for two loaves. Worth highlighting that some folks talk about flour weight (and I would be one) and others may refer to full recipe weight.

NPHuskerFL

@20stone Yep.  I always make 2 loaves.  Each loaf is 1K or thereabouts .

caliking

@blind99 - wrapping your brain around the concept of bakers' %age is key. Once you get used to that, you can scale or modify any recipe as you wish.

I bake one 500g or 650g loaf when I bake. That size fits well in the Lodge 5qt CIDO that I bake bread in, and its the right size to least a week or so before its time to bake again. 

So, I figure out what size of loaf I want to bake, in terms of total flour weight, then figure out the rest accordingly e.g. 30% WW, % hydration, etc. 

You can basically write your own recipe this way, and make whatever you want. Add-ins make it even more fun - flax seeds, citrus zest, seeds, etc.  

Edit - I just saw that SciAggie said the same thing, but more cogently:) )

caliking

NPHuskerFL said:

@caliking Comm yeast
JK

I know, I know. I needed a fast rise. 4yo's aint known to be patient!

SciAggie

caliking said:

NPHuskerFL said:

@caliking Comm yeast
JK

I know, I know. I needed a fast rise. 4yo's aint known to be patient!

@NPHuskerFL I know, right? I don't know what to think. Here's a guy that will raise a pig, slaughter it himself, gather the fat and then render his own lard just to make a tender biscuit. This same guy then goes to the store and buys instant yeast from a package... I just don't know...

NPHuskerFL

lkapigian

Maybe I'm doing part if this wrong...the starter I've been baking with I've been,keeping out and either baking every day or 2 with it ...if I'm not baking it still gets fed twice ...but I'm just eyeballing the dump and replacing with 100 grams water/flour...I'm keeping roughly 4- 500 grams active and using 180 to 270 grams when baking.....I have not yet done the Ratio for maintenance....I do have 1 starter in the fridge I am feeding every t days or so, but I still eyeball the dump and replace with equal amounts of water flour

What is the negative side of not matching the starter to the amount of food? Ratio of bacteria to yeast? So sour to power? 

lkapigian

Ok Wild yeast Guru's ....how does starter fit into bakers % ....is it considered flour, water or 5050 ....? 

20stone

lkapigian said:

Ok Wild yeast Guru's ....how does starter fit into bakers % ....is it considered flour, water or 5050 ....? 

I suppose it depends on how wet you keep your starter. I always do equal parts (by weight) of flour and water, so the math is 50/50.

lkapigian

@20stone I'm keeping it at 5050, but what % of starter would be used in the formula , I think I saw somewhere 30% of the flour would be from starter...is there and rule of thumb? 

I found a sourdough app , so @SciAggie eazy peazy sourdough would breakdown like this 22% starter


I guess the amount of starter you use does not matter so long as its calculated in the hydration?....I have a headache now

caliking

@lkapigian to prevent headaches, I do the only logical thing ... Ignore it!

For the 650g loaves I've been baking recently, I add AP 200g, WW 50g, water 200g, and starter 50g to make the levain. All of that goes into the final dough. 

For the final dough, I account for the water and flour in the levain (minus the starter), and figure out how more of each is needed. The true percentages are off by a bit, but I don't sweat it. It's splitting bread hairs IMO

When I feed the starter every week, I add an eyeballed tablespoonful of starter to AP 3/4 cup, and water 1/3 cup. Yes, by volume, and imprecise. Because I'm too lazy to get the scale out and measure by weight. 

lkapigian

Thanks @caliking

SciAggie

lkapigian said:

Maybe I'm doing part if this wrong...the starter I've been baking with I've been,keeping out and either baking every day or 2 with it ...if I'm not baking it still gets fed twice ...but I'm just eyeballing the dump and replacing with 100 grams water/flour...I'm keeping roughly 4- 500 grams active and using 180 to 270 grams when baking.....I have not yet done the Ratio for maintenance....I do have 1 starter in the fridge I am feeding every t days or so, but I still eyeball the dump and replace with equal amounts of water flour

What is the negative side of not matching the starter to the amount of food? Ratio of bacteria to yeast? So sour to power? 

I understand your question to be how varying the amount of old starter used to inoculate fresh water and flour affects the outcome. As your starter grows and bubbles, the population of yeast vs bacteria changes as a percentage of the starter ecosystem. Also byproducts of fermentation such as alcohol and acid become a part of the "soup" we call starter. Their amount as a percentage varies according to the mass of the inoculation starter used.
If you use more/less mass of starter to inoculate a new food source, you bring more/less of those byproducts along. That has an effect on flavor and it also Affects the way the new bacteria and yeast grow depending on their tolerance to the environment they are in with regard to acid and alcohol. The ecosystem we call the starter can favor bacteria or yeast growth depending on its age.
All of this is to say - if you like a real sour "twang" to your dough - use older and mature starter and inoculate with a large sample from the previous batch. If you want a younger "sweeter" dough that smells "yeasty" then use a small amount of starter to inoculate the new batch.

The book "The Bread Builders" goes into this in some detail.  

lkapigian

Thanks @SciAggie

SciAggie

caliking said:

@lkapigian to prevent headaches, I do the only logical thing ... Ignore it!

Me too. My bread at 75% hydration with the starter figured in is actually about 77% hydration. I don’t worry about it other than knowing I’m a bit higher hydration than I calculate.

How long you autolyse or the humidity can cause more difference in a batch of dough than this difference in hydration in my opinion. 

NPHuskerFL

@lkapigian I downloaded that app back when I first started sourdough and using Baker percentage method.  As apps go it's a decent one.  It looked interesting at the time 2-3 years ago. But, like many apps I've downloaded I just don't use it. 

lkapigian

@NPHuskerFL ,I'm not much of an APP person either, I get Bakers% but did not see how to got that into a starter...there are to many variables...if one has plenty of time, you can use just a few grams of starter, up to what I see around here...best I can see, for they way I am learning from all you here, 22-30% of your flour can come from starter 

blind99

Awesome, this is great info. All of those recipes are really helpful to get a sense of scale.

There's definitely a lot to play around with!  I'm looking forward to making some more.  Will have to get the egg involved, too.

@caliking your son cranked out a good looking loaf of bread!  little guy did a great job!  i'm not worried about the commercial yeast, i'm sure he'll be butchering his own pigs soon

SciAggie

I baked my first olive loaf this morning. I’ll cut it later this evening (I have to go do this work thing ).

blind99

We are on a bit of a bread bender here. 



Nytimes sourdough waffle recipe 





These were RIDICULOUS. best waffle ever. 

NPHuskerFL

@blind99 Waffles look good even if the recipe were came from The Times

lkapigian

Bombdiggity to all!!

Clutch227

Ok guys, I love seeing all this great bread.  I’ve been baking quite a bit myself since first being inspired by this thread.  I’ve done baguettes, pita, pizza and most often sourdough.  My starter Jacque Couscough is doin great and has contributed to almost every dough recipe I’ve made so far.  

Unfortunately, i am having issues with my sourdough boules... 

I’m using the Tartine Country Bread recipe that basically breaks down to this ratio

200g starter (100% Hydration)
750g water
100g Whole Wheat flour (KA)
900g Bread Flour (KA)
20g salt

Process is 

Mix starter, Flour, and 700g of water
autolyse for 15min
add salt and remaining 50g of water and mix until combined
proof at room temp for 3 hours folding every half hour
preshape into boule, no flour on work surface
bench rest 15min
final shape, set in bannetons
cold proof for 16hours

My issue is that I bake the bread and it tastes great, truly awesome bread for some good butter and honey, but sometimes I get these huge holes in the center



This has been my worst loaf by far but it highlights the issue.  Very disappointing.  I have had much better loaves and one perfect loaf but of course the perfect loaf is the one I have no notes on.  Not sure if this is shaping technique, proofing times, or what.  

NPHuskerFL

@Clutch227 I'm not familiar with the recipe you're using.  But, 15 minutes on autolyse seems extreme. Might as well not bother with autolyse.
I normally autolyse sans starter and go as long as 24+ hrs at ambient. I understand some recipes read otherwise. There are so many different factors that determine the final end product. 

SciAggie

I found this article that might be helpful - I do not know if it is the answer. I do not know for sure either. My first thought is that 3 hours for bulk fermentation is not long enough. Sourdough does not act as quickly as commercial yeast. Most of my loaves require a 5-6 hour bulk even in warm weather. 
I also agree with @NPHuskerFL regarding the autolyse. I don’t do it nearly as long as he does, but I think 1-2 hours is a minimum for it to be effective. 

20stone

SciAggie said:

... My first thought is that 3 hours for bulk fermentation is not long enough. Sourdough does not act as quickly as commercial yeast. Most of my loaves require a 5-6 hour bulk even in warm weather. 
I also agree with @NPHuskerFL regarding the autolyse. I don’t do it nearly as long as he does, but I think 1-2 hours is a minimum for it to be effective. 

+1 on both points. My bulk using 300g of starter tends to go closer to 10 hours (I’d bet my kitchen is colder than @SciAggie’s).  I typically get 2.5 to 3x increase in size during the bulk.

Clutch227

Thanks for the input guys - here is the recipe link for reference.. https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016277-tartines-country-bread

For my next attempt I will look over the ratios everyone posted above and adjust to longer autolyse and bulk ferment and see what comes from it.  Who knows, the one set of perfect loaves could have been a day that I had to step away and was forced into a long bulk and I just do not remember. 

caliking

As others have chimed in, it looks like your bulk fermentation was too short . That cut pic shows that the dough was raring to go, and wasn't done with bulk fermentation yet. 

15 mins is more like the hydration phase. Mix and autolyse for a few, or many hrs. Add starter, salt and let the bulk fermentation go for a few to many hrs. Then the proofing phase. 

That "perfect" loaf is elusive. But that's what makes it fun