Epilogue: Ozark Oak

SGH

@RRP
One last Cat with a close up of the roller box. 

Ron, for the record, if I had your money I would buy 10 of them

SGH

Ron, just some random pics. 

RRP

Thanks, Scottie! It's nice to see all that yaller painted equipment in use! BTW - this is no yarn...years ago at one of the 4 street corners bordering the square city block footprint of the world HQ of CAT here in downtown Peoria a tanker tipped over spilling thousands of gallons of that tough yellow paint that CAT uses. That paint is known for its durability. Due to re-paving and new sidewalks it is now gone, but trust me for years and years it was there and it was no marketing gimmick as it was considered an eyesore by many residents.

SGH

@RRP
Ron, the original color "Caterpillar Yellow" was a lead based, enamel paint. It was as tough as nails. Sadly they changed the composition sometime in the late 70's to a urethane base. That old saying "they don't make stuff like they use to" rings true here. The new formula for Cat Yellow falls short of the original. 

SGH

Found another Cat. 

bgebrent

Bump my favorite thread.

RRP

Thanks, Scottie! I'm surprised that several CAT and Deere employees and retirees have not jumped in to this thread as I know they are on the forum here. I believe they at least benefit indirectly from the equipment high-lighted for it's strength, reliability, and relative value in the world market place.

YukonRon

Just guessing, the greens and yellows of years past had significant content of heavy metal. Lead is one of the metals used in coatings that most are aware of, another heavy metal is chromium, or chromates. That is some bad stuff to deal with. Yellows and greens, from years past, were loaded with it.
Those who were subjected to heavy exposure died much too early in life. Pregnant women, subjected to same, delivered children with life limiting defects, if alive at birth.
I admit I may be considered an environmentalist, not so much for what we harvest, but what we put back or release irresponsibly.
I applaud both Cat and Deere, for their refocus on coatings to lessen their environmental impact and being responsible citizens within their communities. They have built the cities and fed the world. Nothing wrong with that, even if the colors are not as vivid as they used to be. 

Jeepster47

I'm watching Ron ... each one of those yellow machines is a retirement check, so I do pay attention.

Austin Egghead

Ron, this has been a really interesting post.  Thanks to both you and Scottie.  Jeepster, I know what you mean, everytime I go into a hospital lab and see the BD products I know the other half's retirement check will be in the mail.

saluki2007

Meh, we haven't shipped CAT a part in almost 4 years now.  I do enjoy seeing them in action though. We have a D3 and D5 dozers along with a C7 excavator at our duck club.

RRP

saluki2007 said:

Meh, we haven't shipped CAT a part in almost 4 years now.  I do enjoy seeing them in action though. We have a D3 and D5 dozers along with a C7 excavator at our duck club.

and here I thought you worked for CAT. BTW that must be one rich duck club to have, much less need, that much heavy equipment!

saluki2007

RRP said:

saluki2007 said:

Meh, we haven't shipped CAT a part in almost 4 years now.  I do enjoy seeing them in action though. We have a D3 and D5 dozers along with a C7 excavator at our duck club.

and here I thought you worked for CAT. BTW that must be one rich duck club to have, much less need, that much heavy equipment!

The company I work for is 90% aerospace /10% ground base turbine manufacturing.

As far as the duck club, we have about 300 total acres we hunt on down by rice lake on the inside of the core levee so we do a lot of "manipulation" of our own levees.  We usually have to fix our levees after the river floods, but it's mostly just men and their BIG toys.

nolaegghead

SGH said:

@RRP
Ron, the original color "Caterpillar Yellow" was a lead based, enamel paint. It was as tough as nails. Sadly they changed the composition sometime in the late 70's to a urethane base. That old saying "they don't make stuff like they use to" rings true here. The new formula for Cat Yellow falls short of the original. 

Are you kidding me?!  Urethane paint is superior to acrylic enamel in every single way except cost - the enamel is about half the price. 

The pigments are not paint chemistry related, although you could make some generalizations that organic pigments (although they are often dyes) are less durable than inorganic.

Anyway, there's a reason acrylic enamels aren't used anymore - it is they are inferior.  In. Every. Way. (except cost).

SGH

nolaegghead said:

Are you kidding me?!  Urethane paint is superior to acrylic enamel in every single way except cost - the enamel is about half the price. 

The pigments are not paint chemistry related, although you could make some generalizations that organic pigments (although they are often dyes) are less durable than inorganic.

Anyway, there's a reason acrylic enamels aren't used anymore - it is they are inferior.  In. Every. Way. (except cost).

You can believe that bull$hit if you want. The Cat Yellow of today fades after only a year in the sun. Falls off and chips at the slightest bump. There are machines from the 70's with the original coating still intact. I work around heavy equipment everyday of my life and have for almost 4 decades. Today's junk simply does not compare. It's not even close. 

YukonRon

SGH said:

nolaegghead said:

Are you kidding me?!  Urethane paint is superior to acrylic enamel in every single way except cost - the enamel is about half the price. 

The pigments are not paint chemistry related, although you could make some generalizations that organic pigments (although they are often dyes) are less durable than inorganic.

Anyway, there's a reason acrylic enamels aren't used anymore - it is they are inferior.  In. Every. Way. (except cost).

You can believe that bull$hit if you want. The Cat Yellow of today fades after only a year in the sun. Falls off and chips at the slightest bump. There are machines from the 70's with the original coating still intact. I work around heavy equipment everyday of my life and have for almost 4 decades. Today's junk simply does not compare. It's not even close. 

Gentlemen, If I may:

Lead based coatings offered great adhesion, no doubt about it. I have that stuff on my house from way back in the early to mid 20th century, and short of an all out media blast, that paint will not come off. @SGH - it was a durable finish in its day, compared to the other technologies, that were available.

Straight to the point; The process has changed exponentially over the years.

Here is a quick education on coatings; 99% of all the problems with paint is from either from an improperly prepared substrate, or improper through cure, or a combination of both. 

Hard to believe, but in the manufacture of an automobile, the coatings application is the most expensive part of the process.

The current adhesion and weathering issues seen on the Cats, are typically due to the substrate improperly prepared for heavy equipment. 

There is little trivalent or hexavalent chromates used in metal conditioning these days for heavy equipment, and to do so, jacks the cost sky high for all the environmental precautions that must be made. 

Typically, it is done with Iron or Zinc phosphates, which are more environmentally and cost friendly, yet less effective. If the metal does not get to a certain temp, and is not cleaned properly, those metal conditioning procedures are worthless, and adhesion suffers. 

As the colors were supported by additional heavy metals, (Cr(III) and Cr(VI)) and are now listed as known carcinogens, those items for coatings have been removed. They have been replaced with more organic pigments, which neither hide as well, requiring multiple coats, nor will hold up longer term, without a UV and weathering resistant clear coat to help protect them. On heavy machinery, that seldom is the case to add the expense of a protective clear. 

Trust me, thicker coats are not indicative of greater adhesion or durability. Think of a 2x4 and a yard stick. You can bend a yardstick almost end to end before the surface breaks. A 2x4 yields little when bending prior to surface deformation. That is where polyurethanes have an advantage; Thinner film builds, (less material) and stronger, (long term) durability.

So, in support of the @nolaegghead assertion, polyurethanes, when used correctly, will certainly out perform the enamels of today when used correctly. If the polyurethanes today had the advantage of chromate metal conditioning, prior to application, they would certainly last longer than the enamels given the same process. Add lead or any other heavy metal into a polyurethane, game over, enamel could never compete.

In essence you are both are correct in your assertions, FWIW. Equipment in the 70's definitely had some advantages with HM AE than say, lacquers that were also used. Acrylic Enamels today, are nowhere near where they used to be.

As an example, I know of a concrete truck still used as part of the fleet in a local concrete vendor. That truck was painted in the late 80's or early 90's with a polyurethane, which had the advantage of heavy metals in the coating and substrate preparation. You can break cured concrete off the finish, and there is little or no harm.

Given enamels today have to utilize the same processes polyurethanes are subjected to, without lead and without heavy metals, there is little to compare in durability, or long term color holdout.

In their day, enamels were a viable product. They replaced nitrocellulose based lacquers for durability and functionality. Polyurethanes replaced  acrylic enamels, for the same reason, as well as ease of use.

Peace my brothers. You are both right.                             
 

bgebrent

I need a bourbon slushy after reading that!

YukonRon

bgebrent said:

I need a bourbon slushy after reading that!

Just put a batch in to free

Bert2015

I live if northwest Arkansas. Occasionally go through Yellville. Any way to buy locally there at plant??

Bert2015

Also, being 5 months into BGE ownership, I've been running through various coals to see what I like. 10 years ago before kids and a life long charcoaler ( I went to the dark side, gas, when first kid born for convenience), I bought nothing but Ozark Oak. I just bought some Royal Oak, as it is the same as my long time standard, I'm done!!! Won't go to anything else. Just lit my first batch, sooooooo much better!!!!

SloppyJoe

nolaegghead

Probably a good thing the EPA regulated lead, cadmium, chromium and other toxic heavy metals out of consumer coatings and many other products like toys and dishes or we'd have even more Trump supporters today....

Eggdicted_Dawgfan

We could use them! ^^^^

bud812

nolaegghead said:

Probably a good thing the EPA regulated lead, cadmium, chromium and other toxic heavy metals out of consumer coatings and many other products like toys and dishes or we'd have even more Trump supporters today....

nolaegghead

I apologize.  I think it's really a stretch to link lower IQs from heavy metals with not going to college and, transitivly, being part of his biggest demographic.   That's just crazy talk and, again, I apologize. 

nolaegghead

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/who-are-donald-trumps-supporters-really/471714/

YukonRon

And this?

gmac

I read the first page of this thread and then jumped to the last. Wow, that is some serious thread drift you got going here. 

RRP

gmac said:

I read the first page of this thread and then jumped to the last. Wow, that is some serious thread drift you got going here. 

LOL - you ain't seen sh*t yet!!!

YukonRon

This is classic. I know how she feels.