OT - I read this article then I read the commentary below.-OT

YukonRon · May 2020

Amateurism in college athletics is dead. Any thought you had about it, forget it time to make the change once and for all.

The unathletic people in the athletic departments, power conferences and NCAA offices have made enough money. You did it, suits. Congratulations. What a run. Your system was making bank for decades and the fans fell for it. We all bought in, even though it never really made sense in the first place. Why can’t they make money on their own name and likeness again? Because they take classes? What does that even mean?

“But they get free education and free room and board”

Shut up. They should already get free school and free room and board because the program and the players before them literally built those buildings. They bought a shîtload of boats and vacation homes for people with zero career minutes played, too.

It’s time we stop pretending there is some sanctity of college athletics to protect. That went out the window when the NCAA Tournament started bringing in hundreds of millions of dollar$ per year. Now we’re watching the system beg for its unpaid talent (its ONLY unpaid talent) to save everything. We have the media companies and universities on their knees begging for a way to get at least 22 student-athletes on a field to roll around chasing a ball, but it is too dangerous for students who can’t run, jump or read a blitz.

But I thought they were just regular student-athletes, like everyone else their age on campus? Why not ask the freshman forestry class to come back and save everything? Can the art school not do it? Surely the science students can come back and keep the university afloat. After all, they’re scientists. No?

Oh wait… you need the athletes and ONLY the athletes. How ironic. Football players and basketball players just wanted a little slice of the pie (and it was a huge pie) before, but you couldn’t share. Now you need them for your budgets (and in some cases, your boat).

What a turn of events. This is quite a plot twist we’re witnessing. A “Look at me, I’m the captain now” situation.

Everything rides on getting the amateurs to amateur again for the fans’ entertainment before the well runs dry.There’s a virus trying to take down the world, and to save these athletic departments nationwide, administrators are going to ask the ones without money to make the money.

So who should be getting paid here?

Another system unfair to those who give their all.

What do you think?

Dondgc · May 2020

My thoughts may seem contradictory. I think players should get paid. And I think that will destroy college sports. Once endorsements are on the table - and they should be - players will only want to be in major media markets where lots of endorsements are possible.

Like I said - contradictory.

nolaegghead · May 2020

Pay a salary based on the league with a salary cap per team. Allow free market advertising contracts and cover health insurance for injury and disability for, well, disabilities from playing.

Keep academic requirements the same as anyone else per school.

YukonRon · May 2020

I think it obvious the end of the NCAA is on the horizon and has been for a while. Times such as these brings us much more close the inequality, scrutiny and burden student athletes must endure to participate in college sports.

It is not uncommon for students to work simultaneous to going to school to support them selves.

My neighbor pursued an accounting degree on full scholarship, and also worked at a bank while doing so. Students may do so, but student athletes typically are not afforded the opportunity for additional income.

Compensate and insure. Allow them the opportunity to make money.to support themselves and families.

This was also an interesting read:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/gvaqdm/for-love-or-for-money-a-history-of-amateurism-in-the-olympic-games

The origins of amaturism, argued on behalf of class and race.

HendersonTRKing · May 2020

It’s sports, which at its essence is as cool as it gets. But as it presently exists, it’s also exploitation, which is as uncool as it gets. As in so many things, just follow the money. Perhaps we’ll see some change come out of this economic collapse — this is one of many arenas (ha!) where it’s sorely needed. Or maybe not — there are a lot of dollars riding on a return to the status quo.

Acn · May 2020

I think it is ridiculous that US Universities are shouldering the bill to perform player development for multi-billion dollar professional sports leagues. I also think it is ridiculous that in 40 states the highest paid public employee is an athletic coach.

At the very least, players shouldn't have to forfeit their likeness rights. Video game licencing funds should be split among all players, and Trevor Lawrence should get a cut of every Clemson #16 jersey that is bought.

DoubleEgger · May 2020

Acn said:

I think it is ridiculous that US Universities are shouldering the bill to perform player development for multi-billion dollar professional sports leagues.

Shouldering the bill? It’s a huge money maker for most schools.

pgprescott · May 2020

If you remove the revenue stream then all the title nine sports and less popular sports and activities will dry up. Big picture. I am fine with removing age hurdles from entering professional sports if you want to be a professional and are good enough. Should the HS players get paid also?

HeavyG · May 2020

DoubleEgger said:

Acn said:

I think it is ridiculous that US Universities are shouldering the bill to perform player development for multi-billion dollar professional sports leagues.

Shouldering the bill? It’s a huge money maker for most schools.

Really??

I know that the top tier two or three dozen schools make a boatload of money but almost all the others lose money.

abtaylor260 · May 2020

This will only strengthen further the high profile programs and make more corrupt whoever regulates it. The NCAA is already entirely corrupt anyway.

This has nothing to do with fairness to athletes, but everything to do with greed and who gains the most.

Either way, I will be a sheep and tune in on Saturday regardless and root for my favorite teams.

Foghorn · May 2020

Pretty much all of the major D1 conference schools make money on football and mens' basketball. With rare exception (maybe UCONN women's basketball, an occasional baseball program) all the rest are money losers - so the revenue generated by football and mens' basketball funds all of the other sports.

It's more complicated than many make it out to be. Yes, people pay to watch Tua Tagovailoa or Zion Williamson - but they do that partly because of the Alabama jersey or the Duke jersey. We're the only country that ties professional sports development to college education such that our college teams function as minor leagues for the major sports. No minor league player in any sport anywhere makes much money. The fan/school loyalty is real and definitely contributes to the TV viewing, ticket sales, jersey sales, etc. That stuff wouldn't have happened if Zion played in the NBA D-League or Tua played in some football equivalent. The exposure they got from huge audiences on national TV dramatically increases the amount they earn on their first professional contract and on their first endorsement contracts. (After leaving Duke, Zion had endorsement deals worth over $100,000,000 before he ever played an NBA game)

I'm not saying that everything about the current system is "right" or "good". But I don't think the athletes want to destroy the current system because the alternative (something akin to minor league baseball or minor league English soccer) is likely not to their benefit.

On the flip side, in addition to generating direct revenue, college sports are a rallying point for campuses and alumni such that the existence of football and basketball increases alumni donations to the institutions because they help keep the alumni community connected.

I don't have answers. I'm just pointing out some of the complexities because it is not as simple as people suggest.

pgprescott · May 2020

If there were no Zion or Tua or whoever, the show would roll on. It’s largely the environment created by the schools and leagues that create the atmosphere. I’m not sure one less person will attend because any individual graduates or leaves for the pros. It a continuous carousel of place holders filling a roll in the drama of the week. If the student athletes aren’t there for the education then that’s on them. There is obviously tremendous value and opportunity for them in participation.

johnnyp · May 2020

I'm perfectly fine with the schools not paying the student-athletes a wage beyond their scholarships. But the student-athlete should absolutely be able to profit off of their likeness and image.

Luckily, it seems to be moving in that direction. Just my 0.02

StillH2OEgger · May 2020

YukonRon said:

It is not uncommon for students to work simultaneous to going to school to support them selves.

My neighbor pursued an accounting degree on full scholarship, and also worked at a bank while doing so. Students may do so, but student athletes typically are not afforded the opportunity for additional income.

Ron, I am on the fence with a lot of this, but it's not all doom and gloom for scholarship athletes nowadays. Most receive a "cost of attendance" stipend that amounts to about $400-600 per month, on top of the tuition, room and board. I'm no fan of the NCAA, but I feel like nobody ever mentions the fact that college athletes are also being paid these stipends. It's a separate issue from the star athletes bringing in millions for their schools, but for anyone who's not a lottery pick or headed to the NFL the stipend is nothing to scoff at.

StillH2OEgger · May 2020

Foghorn said:

Pretty much all of the major D1 conference schools make money on football and mens' basketball. With rare exception (maybe UCONN women's basketball, an occasional baseball program) all the rest are money losers - so the revenue generated by football and mens' basketball funds all of the other sports.

It's more complicated than many make it out to be. Yes, people pay to watch Tua Tagovailoa or Zion Williamson - but they do that partly because of the Alabama jersey or the Duke jersey. We're the only country that ties professional sports development to college education such that our college teams function as minor leagues for the major sports. No minor league player in any sport anywhere makes much money. The fan/school loyalty is real and definitely contributes to the TV viewing, ticket sales, jersey sales, etc. That stuff wouldn't have happened if Zion played in the NBA D-League or Tua played in some football equivalent. The exposure they got from huge audiences on national TV dramatically increases the amount they earn on their first professional contract and on their first endorsement contracts. (After leaving Duke, Zion had endorsement deals worth over $100,000,000 before he ever played an NBA game)

I'm not saying that everything about the current system is "right" or "good". But I don't think the athletes want to destroy the current system because the alternative (something akin to minor league baseball or minor league English soccer) is likely not to their benefit.

On the flip side, in addition to generating direct revenue, college sports are a rallying point for campuses and alumni such that the existence of football and basketball increases alumni donations to the institutions because they help keep the alumni community connected.

I don't have answers. I'm just pointing out some of the complexities because it is not as simple as people suggest.

Well stated. I agree with all of this.

YukonRon · May 2020

Here is another article I read today that I found interesting. Perhaps it allows a bit of clarity in the numbers globally regarding Covid19.

Many countries do not compile data in the same manner. Here in the US, our states vary wildly in data collection as well.

The numbers in Italy and France as an example, correspond to some of the actions many state governors had reportedly enforced on the identification of cause of death for their states.

This actually tries to establish the grid and spike, comparitively speaking.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries?utm_campaign=coronavirus-special-edition&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=salesforce-marketing-cloud&utm_term=2020-05-23&utm_content=cover_text_url_3

What do you think?

Dondgc · May 2020

YukonRon said:

Here is another article I read today that I ...

How on earth did this get flagged?

YukonRon · May 2020

Dondgc said:

YukonRon said:

Here is another article I read today that I ...

How on earth did this get flagged

Flaggots gonna flag. Easier to flad than respond.

Whatevs. It is their "Badge of Honor"

Ignorance is bliss. Their day has been made.

Good for them.

ColbyLang · May 2020

Pay em, don’t pay em. They’re still gonna get envelopes of cash from backers. I think they should be allowed to have insurance policies on themselves like pro athletes. Keep in mind,
football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

JohnInCarolina · May 2020

ColbyLang said:

Keep in mind,
football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

This is really true. It’s why you won’t find history or English departments at D-2 or D-3 schools. Oh wait...

ColbyLang · May 2020

JohnInCarolina said:

ColbyLang said:

Keep in mind,
football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

This is really true. It’s why you won’t find history or English departments at D-2 or D-3 schools. Oh wait...

You expect me to believe that the 8 figure income D1 football brings in remains in athletics? Cmon man, you’re a professor.

SmokeyPitt · May 2020

ColbyLang said:

Keep in mind, football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Where does the $50K/year that students are spending on college go? What about schools with no football team?

I have no idea how much of the money is distributed back to academics, but I suspect surprisingly little.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/where-does-money-go

If you keep scrolling, academic distribution is a footnote at the end and they don't specify an amount.

JohnInCarolina · May 2020

ColbyLang said:

JohnInCarolina said:

ColbyLang said:

Keep in mind,
football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

This is really true. It’s why you won’t find history or English departments at D-2 or D-3 schools. Oh wait...

You expect me to believe that the 8 figure income D1 football brings in remains in athletics? Cmon man, you’re a professor.

The specific assertion I’m contesting is that without football, there wouldn’t be history or English departments. Obviously this is incorrect, as plenty of schools without profitable football programs have those departments. In other words, I’m not asking you to believe anything, I’m asking you to exercise your critical thinking skills. And yes that is what professors do, particularly those of us in engineering.

JohnInCarolina · May 2020

SmokeyPitt said:

ColbyLang said:

Keep in mind, football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

Do you have any facts to back up this claim? Where does the $50K/year that students are spending on college go? What about schools with no football team.

I have no idea how much of the money is distributed back to academics, but I suspect surprisingly little.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/where-does-money-go

If you keep scrolling, academic distribution is a footnote at the end and they don't specify an amount.

The studies I have seen indicate that it’s actually very little that is returned to academic programs. Athletic programs have their own budgets, and they basically spend what they bring in. It goes to scholarships (across all varsity sports), coaching contracts, and facilities.

Here’s one article discussing this:
http://amp.thecomeback.com/ncaa/less-than-1-in-every-100-of-public-athletic-departments-revenue-goes-to-academics-only-10-schools-gave-on-balance.html

alaskanassasin · May 2020

Federally insured student loans pay for all that.

JohnInCarolina · May 2020

alaskanassasin said:

Federally insured student loans pay for all that.

Also incorrect. The percentage of students who qualify for federal loans is typically only about a third. And federal loans usually don’t cover anywhere near the full cost of education.

alaskanassasin · May 2020

Borrowing through the Federal Direct student loan program (subsidized and unsubsidized combined) fell by 32% ($32.3 billion in 2018 dollars) between 2010-11 and 2018-19, falling from 77% to 65% of total education borrowing. Between 1998-99 and 2010-11, borrowing through this program increased by 142% ($59.5 billion).

JohnInCarolina · May 2020

alaskanassasin said:

Borrowing through the Federal Direct student loan program (subsidized and unsubsidized combined) fell by 32% ($32.3 billion in 2018 dollars) between 2010-11 and 2018-19, falling from 77% to 65% of total education borrowing. Between 1998-99 and 2010-11, borrowing through this program increased by 142% ($59.5 billion).

That’s the percentage of *borrowing*, not the percentage of costs.

ColbyLang · May 2020

JohnInCarolina said:

ColbyLang said:

JohnInCarolina said:

ColbyLang said:

Keep in mind,
football keeps 90% of the campus funded. Without it, there wouldn’t be english, history or all those other random majors.

This is really true. It’s why you won’t find history or English departments at D-2 or D-3 schools. Oh wait...

You expect me to believe that the 8 figure income D1 football brings in remains in athletics? Cmon man, you’re a professor.

The specific assertion I’m contesting is that without football, there wouldn’t be history or English departments. Obviously this is incorrect, as plenty of schools without profitable football programs have those departments. In other words, I’m not asking you to believe anything, I’m asking you to exercise your critical thinking skills. And yes that is what professors do, particularly those of us in engineering.

Ok, so I misspoke about English and History. Cut out basketball and football at Duke and see what sticks around.

alaskanassasin · May 2020

The percentage of students who qualify for federal loans is typically only about a third.

I was aiming at that one. But carry on

pgprescott · May 2020

JohnInCarolina said:

alaskanassasin said:

Federally insured student loans pay for all that.

Also incorrect. The percentage of students who qualify for federal loans is typically only about a third. And federal loans usually don’t cover anywhere near the full cost of education.

That’s because the price of the education is grossly over priced. Grossly! Also it’s not the cost of the education it’s what they are charged. Huge delta there.

OT - I read this article then I read the commentary below.-OT

Amateurism in college athletics is dead. Any thought you had about it, forget it time to make the change once and for all.

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