water in Flint, MI

nolaegghead

Darby_Crenshaw said:

I'm just hoping someone will make it simple and tell me which president to blame it on

I would recommend just doing whatever Sarah Palin does.  http://time.com/4187437/sarah-palin-track-ptsd-obama-trump/

bud812

Darby_Crenshaw said:

I'm just hoping someone will make it simple and tell me which president to blame it on

The next one.

Fred19Flintstone

Homebrewguy said:

YukonRon said:

Maybe they think elevated levels, (1,600 percent higher) is not an indicator of an issue for safe drinking water for the population of Flint, Michigan?

I suppose the governor appointed EFM for Flint, was more concerned about limiting the cost exposure to the state government and not the health of those residing in the municipality. Sacrifices must be made, just keep paying your taxes though. I suppose this EFM was appointed, because the elected officials of Flint demonstrated a degree of ineptness financially, when it came to running the city and serving those whom they were voted in to office to protect?

Inalienable Rights in Michigan, must be solely about the health of the state government, and not its tax paying citizens the government of Michigan was created to protect.

Just My view from 450 driving miles away. The neglect appears to be criminal and intentional. What a mess. 

What about the inalienable rights of those that live outside Flint or other failing municipalities in the state that are being forced to bail them out with state tax dollars form the rest of us taxpayers?

If the elected officials of the city hadn't mismanaged it so badly that they were requiring a financial bail out from citizens/taxpayers that didn't get to vote on Flint issues then who is supposed to protect those taxpayers?

The EFM was appointed because Flint couldn't manage its affairs without going down the fiscal toilet.  In Michigan, the State will help municipalities and school districts that are teetering on financial calamity, but they will appoint an EFM to control the finances.  The EFM stays until the municipality demonstrates through a plan how they will stay out of financial trouble.  Since I moved here in 2000, I think this is the third go-around with an EFM for the City of Flint.  I agree with @Homebrewguy that if Flint had managed their finances responsibly, then they would not have been under an EFM and could have weathered the expensive Detroit water until the new water authority was up and running.  Flint River water would never have been used.  I understand that with the right procedures and treatment, the river water could have been used safely.  BUT that didn't happen.

Why was the EFM needed?  Flint has been mismanaged for decades.  Their legacy costs are astounding.  Back in the day, you could have graduated high school at 18, got a job as a garbage man with Flint, work for 20 years and retire with a full pension and medical at 38 years old.   The taxpayers are on the hook for 30+ years in appreciation of that garbageman's 20 years of service.  These early retirees get new jobs someplace else (I have a few working with me) and get a pension check and their new paycheck.  We call them "Double Dippers".  Good management there!

I do not live in the City of Flint or work for them, but I work downtown.  I feel bad that tax dollars from all over the State (including mine) are going to rescue the City of Flint from it's own stupidity once again.  But at this point, what other choice do we have? 

nolaegghead

Maybe we should just build a wall (make the Flint residents pay for it, of course) around the city, and dump some road kill in there now and then for them to eat.  What else would a civilized society do, right?

Homebrewguy

@Fred19Flintstone - I lived in Flint from 1994-1999 while attending Kettering, so I saw it all first hand.

Darby_Crenshaw

If people nearby don't even want their tax dollars to fix it, then they probably don't want Federal tax dollars to help out either, which means I guess it is down to Flint to fix it. 

Sounds like a solid plan. 

nolaegghead

About 60 miles or so is my limit for caring.  Not about the people (laughter), but the stench carried by the wind is in range.

jtcBoynton

nolaegghead said:

...
  Flint, like many cities, sprang up around a single company - Chevrolet, in this case.  When they moved out/shut down in the '80s, as expected there was a negative economic turn. 
...

Just a point of clarification.  Flint was definitely a GM town. But I think that Buick and Fisher Body were just as important, if not more so, than Chevy in the earlier days.  Chevy more so near the end.

Homebrewguy

@nolaegghead - You're missing the whole point about the discussion on how Flint ended up where they are now. I don't think anybody is claiming we shouldn't Flint at this point. We are explaining how the Emergency Financial Manager laws work and addressing commentary regarding people's democratic rights being taken away.

A financial bailout of Flint prior to this all occurring most likely wouldn't have changed the end result, it just would have pushed it further out into the future.

As stated, there's plenty of blame to go around and on many levels.

All we can do now is try to fix the situation...

Apparently, we locals shouldn't be ahamed over our own frustration regarding how the situation got to the point it's at.  Never mind that the whole thing could have been avoided if the city just treated the water properly, if the city council and EFM didn't decide to change the source water, etc.

Homebrewguy

nolaegghead said:

The point of this thread is about the fiasco with the water quality in Flint.  Not about the sad economic state of Flint.  Flint, like many cities, sprang up around a single company - Chevrolet, in this case.  When they moved out/shut down in the '80s, as expected there was a negative economic turn.  This is life on one side of the bell curve.  Sadly, when the dust settles, there is poverty.  Enter you, bitching about your tax dollars and inalienable rights.  Appropriate?  You must be a problem solver.

Read the thread because I was only responding to someone who brought those very issues up.

YukonRon

Homebrewguy said:

Read the quote and my response to it.  The "inalienable" rights of these people do not allow them to violate my inalienable rights to the democratic process either. That is the point.

Flint was on the road to insolvency and people made poor decisions.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything to help the people or the city to fix it at this point. The point was regarding how Flint and the situation got to where it is today.

To your point about laws for governance regarding health...the whole situation could have been avoided by the Flint Water authority treating the water correctly when the knew the issue existed.  It would have been a lot cheaper then than it is now.

I do love the comments of these people. Occasionally, some thought is put into it, other times, not so much.

The inalienable rights of the Michigan citizens, in Flint, were screwed by the Michigan state government. Unfortunately yours will be also by your elected state government officials, should you foresee an added tax burden to help others, in that manner. Government screw ups are costly.

This coming from a person, whose very state, was not allowed to be decimated due to the bailout of the automotive industry giants by the Federal Government, meaning the rest of the United States citizens, and our tax dollars. Were our rights violated because big business in Michigan ran by people in Michigan, were so mismanaged requiring the federal government to bail them out? I suppose that was different, because it benefited you, and millions like you.

I will get back to that one. Seems to be an ongoing theme in Michigan.

The government you voted for, formed to protect its citizens, due to government negligence (perhaps criminal), laid the groundwork for the poisoning of their own people. Your taxes supported the state government. 

Yeah, it is likely your inalienable rights are going to screwed, by the same government elected to protect the people in Flint. Sorry. You could have moved out of Michigan, like the millions of others over the last several years, (which created a smaller tax base from which to draw from).  Those that are left, in Michigan will have to share more of the burden, due to the lack of action, negligence, whatever, that would have kept a substantial tax base in Michigan to draw support from.

So, when this causes Michigan to secure federal aid, as it will likely do, maybe you and everyone in Michigan who thinks like you, might wish to revisit the Declaration of Independence, and try to have compassion for people that voted for idiots to help them, just as you voted for the idiots to protect you. Read it and understand your rights. They apply to everybody. You don't like your situation, change it. That is your right. Currently, like it or not, being a citizen of Michigan, your taxes will be needed to solve the water problem in Flint, for years to come, as will our tax dollars.

Or, sit there, just as the automakers did, and as your state government has, and let the burden increase for you and the rest of the folks in Michigan. I mean why not, your state, (both public and private initiatives) has shown stellar decision making skills, thus far, on this and other fiascos.

Michigan is a beautiful state with a lot to offer. Too bad this is the type of story that keeps bubbling to the top when news from Michigan is mentioned.

Sorry about your inalienable rights violation. You should be thankful your loved ones were not poisoned, due to the criminal lack of action.

HeavyG

Homebrewguy said:

This wasn't a result of a natural disaster. The city leadership was corrupt and inept, so the city was taken over by the state.  Not to mention a one company town and the workers pissed off that company (due to a highly antagonistic union) and that company reduced its workforce there by 75%.

The people of Flint created the circumstances for this situation to occur. 

The really bad part here is that the whole situation could have been avoided on so many different levels along the way.

"Natural disasters"?

Who decided to build in flood plains?
Who decided to build right on the beach?

A lot of moral hazard in those situations so why are you giving them a pass/excuse?

Sometimes sh#t happens and folks need a helping hand. The important thing is what happens going forward. My guess is that the Flint water system is going to be the beneficiary of a new and better management team.

Fred19Flintstone

Please bear with me.  

During the recent Power Ball fever, I heard a snippet of a reporter doing a "man on the street" interview.  The reporter asks a man in line to buy his tickets what he would do if he won.  His reply was he would get a bunch of hookers and cocaine.  With all that money, he would probably do that over and over.

In applying this to our current discussion, The City of Flint is the man, who if given the chance to manage large amounts of money, would choose to mismanage the money.  Over and over again the City of Flint finds itself circling the drain staring at the abyss of financial ruin.  They get bailed out by State taxpayers like @Homebrewguy and myself and a handful of years later they are back to the brink of financial ruin.  That's the frustration being expressed.

All that being said, there is no choice here but to do whatever is needed to fix this and help those damaged by this crisis.  It's the right thing to do.

Homebrewguy

YukonRon said:

Homebrewguy said:

Read the quote and my response to it.  The "inalienable" rights of these people do not allow them to violate my inalienable rights to the democratic process either. That is the point.

Flint was on the road to insolvency and people made poor decisions.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything to help the people or the city to fix it at this point. The point was regarding how Flint and the situation got to where it is today.

To your point about laws for governance regarding health...the whole situation could have been avoided by the Flint Water authority treating the water correctly when the knew the issue existed.  It would have been a lot cheaper then than it is now.

I do love the comments of these people. Occasionally, some thought is put into it, other times, not so much.

The inalienable rights of the Michigan citizens, in Flint, were screwed by the Michigan state government. Unfortunately yours will be also by your elected state government officials, should you foresee an added tax burden to help others, in that manner. Government screw ups are costly.

This coming from a person, whose very state, was not allowed to be decimated due to the bailout of the automotive industry giants by the Federal Government, meaning the rest of the United States citizens, and our tax dollars. Were our rights violated because big business in Michigan ran by people in Michigan, were so mismanaged requiring the federal government to bail them out? I suppose that was different, because it benefited you, and millions like you.

I will get back to that one. Seems to be an ongoing theme in Michigan.

The government you voted for, formed to protect its citizens, due to government negligence (perhaps criminal), laid the groundwork for the poisoning of their own people. Your taxes supported the state government. 

Yeah, it is likely your inalienable rights are going to screwed, by the same government elected to protect the people in Flint. Sorry. You could have moved out of Michigan, like the millions of others over the last several years, (which created a smaller tax base from which to draw from).  Those that are left, in Michigan will have to share more of the burden, due to the lack of action, negligence, whatever, that would have kept a substantial tax base in Michigan to draw support from.

So, when this causes Michigan to secure federal aid, as it will likely do, maybe you and everyone in Michigan who thinks like you, might wish to revisit the Declaration of Independence, and try to have compassion for people that voted for idiots to help them, just as you voted for the idiots to protect you. Read it and understand your rights. They apply to everybody. You don't like your situation, change it. That is your right. Currently, like it or not, being a citizen of Michigan, your taxes will be needed to solve the water problem in Flint, for years to come, as will our tax dollars.

Or, sit there, just as the automakers did, and as your state government has, and let the burden increase for you and the rest of the folks in Michigan. I mean why not, your state, (both public and private initiatives) has shown stellar decision making skills, thus far, on this and other fiascos.

Michigan is a beautiful state with a lot to offer. Too bad this is the type of story that keeps bubbling to the top when news from Michigan is mentioned.

Sorry about your inalienable rights violation. You should be thankful your loved ones were not poisoned, due to the criminal lack of action.

YukonRon said:

Homebrewguy said:

Read the quote and my response to it.  The "inalienable" rights of these people do not allow them to violate my inalienable rights to the democratic process either. That is the point.

Flint was on the road to insolvency and people made poor decisions.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything to help the people or the city to fix it at this point. The point was regarding how Flint and the situation got to where it is today.

To your point about laws for governance regarding health...the whole situation could have been avoided by the Flint Water authority treating the water correctly when the knew the issue existed.  It would have been a lot cheaper then than it is now.

I do love the comments of these people. Occasionally, some thought is put into it, other times, not so much.

The inalienable rights of the Michigan citizens, in Flint, were screwed by the Michigan state government. Unfortunately yours will be also by your elected state government officials, should you foresee an added tax burden to help others, in that manner. Government screw ups are costly.

This coming from a person, whose very state, was not allowed to be decimated due to the bailout of the automotive industry giants by the Federal Government, meaning the rest of the United States citizens, and our tax dollars. Were our rights violated because big business in Michigan ran by people in Michigan, were so mismanaged requiring the federal government to bail them out? I suppose that was different, because it benefited you, and millions like you.

I will get back to that one. Seems to be an ongoing theme in Michigan.

The government you voted for, formed to protect its citizens, due to government negligence (perhaps criminal), laid the groundwork for the poisoning of their own people. Your taxes supported the state government. 

Yeah, it is likely your inalienable rights are going to screwed, by the same government elected to protect the people in Flint. Sorry. You could have moved out of Michigan, like the millions of others over the last several years, (which created a smaller tax base from which to draw from).  Those that are left, in Michigan will have to share more of the burden, due to the lack of action, negligence, whatever, that would have kept a substantial tax base in Michigan to draw support from.

So, when this causes Michigan to secure federal aid, as it will likely do, maybe you and everyone in Michigan who thinks like you, might wish to revisit the Declaration of Independence, and try to have compassion for people that voted for idiots to help them, just as you voted for the idiots to protect you. Read it and understand your rights. They apply to everybody. You don't like your situation, change it. That is your right. Currently, like it or not, being a citizen of Michigan, your taxes will be needed to solve the water problem in Flint, for years to come, as will our tax dollars.

Or, sit there, just as the automakers did, and as your state government has, and let the burden increase for you and the rest of the folks in Michigan. I mean why not, your state, (both public and private initiatives) has shown stellar decision making skills, thus far, on this and other fiascos.

Michigan is a beautiful state with a lot to offer. Too bad this is the type of story that keeps bubbling to the top when news from Michigan is mentioned.

Sorry about your inalienable rights violation. You should be thankful your loved ones were not poisoned, due to the criminal lack of action.

Your gift for oversimplying complex situations is astounding.

I will reiterate that nobody is saying we shouldn't bail Flint out now.  What I'm saying is your whole statement regarding the citizens of Flint's inalienable rights were not violated by a state takeover of their city which they ran into the ground.  You can't just let a city in their situation go on with business as usual and no changes. Both Flint and Detroit's citizens continued voting the same corrupt leadership into office that eventually ruined those cities. What should the rest of the state do?  Support them indefinitely with no say in what goes on because those citizens have inalienable rights?

Actually, being a part of the automotive industry I did benefit from a bailout that did get paid back to extent compared to the ones the banks received.  If the banks didn't nearly collapse due to their relaxed lending policies were happened as a result of Clinton era policies regarding expanding home ownership, then there would have been money coming into said automotive companies and they could have continued in their restructuring efforts for approx. 19-24 months  at that time. That probably would have been enough time to turn enough around without bailouts. There was still demand for a lot of goods and services (including cars) in the economy at the time, but there was no more financing available which minimized demand virtually overnight and then there was a glut of inventory in many industries which led to shedding of jobs which further eliminated demand, etc.

Homebrewguy

Fred19Flintstone said:

Please bear with me.  

During the recent Power Ball fever, I heard a snippet of a reporter doing a "man on the street" interview.  The reporter asks a man in line to buy his tickets what he would do if he won.  His reply was he would get a bunch of hookers and cocaine.  With all that money, he would probably do that over and over.

In applying this to our current discussion, The City of Flint is the man, who if given the chance to manage large amounts of money, would choose to mismanage the money.  Over and over again the City of Flint finds itself circling the drain staring at the abyss of financial ruin.  They get bailed out by State taxpayers like @Homebrewguy and myself and a handful of years later they are back to the brink of financial ruin.  That's the frustration being expressed.

All that being said, there is no choice here but to do whatever is needed to fix this and help those damaged by this crisis.  It's the right thing to do.

Exactly!

Homebrewguy

Fred19Flintstone said:

Please bear with me.  

During the recent Power Ball fever, I heard a snippet of a reporter doing a "man on the street" interview.  The reporter asks a man in line to buy his tickets what he would do if he won.  His reply was he would get a bunch of hookers and cocaine.  With all that money, he would probably do that over and over.

In applying this to our current discussion, The City of Flint is the man, who if given the chance to manage large amounts of money, would choose to mismanage the money.  Over and over again the City of Flint finds itself circling the drain staring at the abyss of financial ruin.  They get bailed out by State taxpayers like @Homebrewguy and myself and a handful of years later they are back to the brink of financial ruin.  That's the frustration being expressed.

All that being said, there is no choice here but to do whatever is needed to fix this and help those damaged by this crisis.  It's the right thing to do.

This process has happened 3 times now for the failing Detroit Public Schools as well.  We have no choice to fix it, but at what cost?

I for one am not in favor of returning democratic rights to groups of people that keep re-electing the type of leadership that has gotten them into these messes.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

The above statement seems to apply to the situation with Flint and with the Detroit Public Schools.

Pardon our frustration over these situations while you sit back and arm chair quarter back. 

nolaegghead

Hahahhahahahahahhaha

YukonRon

My observations from 450 miles away may seem simple. The poisoning of citizens, due to lack of government oversight, is not.

I get it that some people can not help themselves, and somebody needs to step in. I really do.  

My arm chair was never used for quarterbacking. It is used for massive oversimplification (see previous posts regarding same). Oh, and yeah, Compassion.

Flint is not the only Municipality that has had an "EFM" planted by the government of Michigan. Just saying. You might want to check into those other folks for their decisions, as not to impact your tax burden, and the inalienable rights, of course.

Not blaming you, just the government. Local and State. Don't let the Government, formed to serve you, keep you on your knees, as they are doing now.

I am the most simple minded person you will ever meet.

henapple

No doubt they have to be helped, tax payers or not but how do you fix stupid?  Flint elected to ex convicts (murder/assault and 2 members that have filed bankruptcy to the city council. 

Fred19Flintstone

My favorite city councilman is currently in jail for driving the wrong way on I-475 with four flat tires while drunk with a blunt in the ashtray.

Its a political frame job you know.

YukonRon

Fred19Flintstone said:

My favorite city councilman is currently in jail for driving the wrong way on I-475 with four flat tires while drunk with a blunt in the ashtray.

Its a political frame job you know.


That, I can believe. I have seen some really different stuff when I work in Michigan. The news on the TV every time I am up there seems more bizarre than the last time I was up there. 

gerhardk

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2014/10/general_motors_wont_use_flint.html

Article from Oct 2014, GM decided that the water wasn't good enough to use in their manufacturing process.  Seems there was plenty of warning of water problems just no one willing to take responsibility. 

Gerhard

Fred19Flintstone

Yeah, when that was reported, the prevailing opinion of everyone I know was that GM is smart and  Flint is not.

mo egg

The Michigan gov. takes responsibility.

http://news.yahoo.com/flint-water-crisis-the-work-of-career-civil-service-people-who-didnt-use-common-sense-says-gov-rick-snyder-141828022.html#

JohnInCarolina

Well at least we've established this was mostly Bill Clinton's fault.  Obama dodged a bullet there!

henapple

I actually read an article from the Washington Post blaming President Reagan 

Darby_Crenshaw

thanks [insert name of a president you hate here]!!

nolaegghead

Fred19Flintstone said:

Yeah, when that was reported, the prevailing opinion of everyone I know was that GM is smart and  Flint is not.

GM....way to smart to go bankrupt and get bailed out.

Fred19Flintstone

nolaegghead said:

Fred19Flintstone said:

Yeah, when that was reported, the prevailing opinion of everyone I know was that GM is smart and  Flint is not.

GM....way to smart to go bankrupt and get bailed out.

Smart about Flint's water?  Absolutely!  That doesn't mean GM is brilliant in all matters.  For example recalls, the Chevy Vega...

SmokeyPitt

Pearl Jam cares. 
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/entertainment/music/2016/01/22/pearl-jam-donates-flint-water-crisis/79173162/