water in Flint, MI

HeavyG

JohnInCarolina said:

A piece on the emails that were released is pretty damning:

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/21/10804970/flint-water-crisis-snyder-emails

A few days ago the Governor was claiming he was exempt from Michigan FOIA laws (which is surprisingly true)  and was not going to release his emails. 

I'm wondering now if he actually released all his emails or just cherry-picked the ones for release.

jak7028

It is amazing how bad the water and waste water infrastructure is across the country and also bridges.  Cities and states are neglecting to maintain, fix  or expand anything due to budget crunches.  They basically wait until EPA mandate and fines force them to fix the problems.

A lot of cities systems are way beyond the 50 years of expected life and still keep going, even without proper maintenance and repairs.  I am actually surprised more problems have not come up.  

You can see examples like Cleveland overflow of sewage going into Lake Eerie.  

fishlessman

still doesnt make sense to have no supermarket, i work in a city where about 45 percent of the working aged dont work, the ave household income is 28000 per year, most dont know english, high crime rates, near boston, and they have several supermarkets

nolaegghead

https://www.google.com/search?q=supermarkets+in+flint+michigan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=supermarkets+in+flint+michigan&rflfq=1&rlha=0&tbm=lcl

Sardonicus

nolaegghead said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=supermarkets+in+flint+michigan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=supermarkets+in+flint+michigan&rflfq=1&rlha=0&tbm=lcl

Well, there ya go!
Problem solved.
  

fishlessman

i feel better now   atleast our leaders here know we have supermarkets flint must be in the dark ages, i get water quality reports quarterly from the city, and monthly thru separate testing from the lake association that monitors drinking water, air quality, emmisions from the trash burning plant, dog poop levels in the lake etc

Sardonicus

I'd like to know how y'all get dogs to poop in a lake.  I'm afraid to know 'why',
only curious about 'how'.

pgprescott

Sardonicus said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

The EPA got involved about a year ago warning them about this problem but the state officials basically told them to buzz off.

State/local officials lied about testing data more than a year ago in order to avoid publicizing a problem they were fully aware of. It's quite likely some folks will be prosecuted for that deception now that the U.S. Attorneys office is getting involved.

I always love the irony of folks like Gov. Snyder who came into office during the Tea Party fever of 2010 running to the federal government for help. On the other hand Michigan Congresscritter Justin Amash, another Republican who came into office in 2010 riding the same Tea Party train, has said that he opposes federal aid for Flint. He said that "the U.S. Constitution does not authorize the federal government to intervene in an intrastate matter like this one". My guess is he'll be changing his tune before long.

I always like when people blame someone who's been around for five minutes for the problems accrued over generations of liberal rule. These problems are the result of decades of bad policy and decision making. Seems like they made a poor call for sure, but why are they in this position to begin with. Hmmmm. 

Some might debate your implied premise.  Or ignore it.  Their choice, of course.
I'll only suggest that the decisions made regarding Flint's water supply and subsequent decisions to eschew treatment of same are the only relevant sources of rage and despair currently experienced by Flint's residents/parents.

That rage, it has been suggested by some within 1000 miles of Gunk Zero, is enhanced by the belief that a more-affluent populace would not have experienced like affects.

That's absolutely true. First, they would have never neglected their business for 50yrs. Second, weren't there a bunch of really high paying jobs in that area for a really long time in the past? Those jobs and the associated businesses where also mismanaged. When the gravy train comes to an abrupt stop, it gets messy. I do feel bad for everyone involved, but they need to examine why they are in such desperate situation on the whole. If the officials did bad things they will likely be held to account. I'm just saying that you should also look at the macro side of the issue. The micro is really low lying fruit, even for you. Ha ha. Jk. 

nolaegghead

Everyone in the country who is on a municipal water system gets quarterly reports...by law.  If their citizens aren't getting them, someone is breaking the law.  Not surprising, if that's the case, given they completely ignored treating the corrosivity issue for so long.

Safe drinking water is a human right.  If anyone wants to make a political issue out of it, they should just shut up and drink some Flint water.

Sardonicus

No, you're not - really.  Thanks for saying so, though.
  

fishlessman

Sardonicus said:

I'd like to know how y'all get dogs to poop in a lake.  I'm afraid to know 'why',
only curious about 'how'.

theres problems about people with dogs near water and rain water runoff. people hundreds of miles away say its killing clam flats. fingers are pointing at my side of the lake

pgprescott

Sardonicus said:

No, you're not - really.  Thanks for saying so, though.
  

Hey, I enjoy the banter.
 I agree that the water needs to be safe and people need to be held to account. I would suggest we not stop at the first fall guy. Keep going. Hold all responsible, responsible. 

Sardonicus

fishlessman said:

Sardonicus said:

I'd like to know how y'all get dogs to poop in a lake.  I'm afraid to know 'why',
only curious about 'how'.

theres problems about people with dogs near water and rain water runoff. people hundreds of miles away say its killing clam flats. fingers are pointing at my side of the lake

Oh, okay.
I was envisioning dogs treading water and
 . . . never mind.

That was summer camp.
And those weren't dogs.
  

Fred19Flintstone

Regarding the Free Press story: Ballenger is a loon.  L. Brooks Patterson is shooting his mouth off so his foot would fit better in it.  And the media is only too happy to help him look foolish.  Perhaps this is overblown and lead poisoning isn't as widespread through the city as currently feared, but it is no hoax.  People, including many children, are testing positive for lead poisoning.  Without knowing how widespread the problem is, I wouldn't drink the water from anywhere in Flint.

Regarding the lack of supermarkets in Flint:  it's true.  Kroger and Meijer (a regional Walmart type store) pulled out last year.  (In the interest of full disclosure, Meijer was just outside the city limits).  They both claim it was not profitable to operate in the city.  Translation: The customers are shoplifting their a$$es off.

In my view, the genesis of this problem is the ancient infrastructure.  The corrosive water turned a nasty long term problem of infrastructure replacement, which could possibly be done piecemeal, into a vast immediate problem.  How many people were poisoned and how widespread the infrastructure damage is yet to be determined.

Jeepster47

Wait, what about the people who use the water?  If that water came into your house, would you drink it?  Wouldn't you start raising hell?  Buy bottled water for yourself and your family?  Buy a big water container and fill it from outside the area?  Or, simply move?  And, don't say the folks are too deep in poverty to not move.

How about our wonderful media folks?  Where were they in this?  Too busy covering the herd of folks running for office?  They should have been on this like the proverbial stink on (deleted).  Investigative reporting seems in short supply.

EPA?  Maybe they should stop adding more to their menu and start paying attention to what's really important.

My only point is that there are a lot of different areas to share the blame ... but, we seem to have this great desire to hang one individual, or one agency, or one race, or one class.

The sad thing is that probably every old city in the nation has lead pipes in their water delivery system.  You and I could be a part of Flint-II. 

We went through this in Tucson in the mid 1990's when they switched some of the area to a different water source and routed it through the main lines in a different direction.  Lot's of rather large filters were added to problem homes!  The good thing is that the people, paper, and city government folks all kept jumping up and down over it until corrections were made.

nolaegghead

Fred19Flintstone said:

In my view, the genesis of this problem is the ancient infrastructure.  The corrosive water turned a nasty long term problem of infrastructure replacement, which could possibly be done piecemeal, into a vast immediate problem.  How many people were poisoned and how widespread the infrastructure damage is yet to be determined.

Managing the corrosivity is the problem.  Did the ancient infrastructure reach it's expiration date coincidentally when the problem started with the river water?  No, the water was corrosive enough to leach enough lead to exceed safe levels.

There are millions of lead water service lines in the US.  Lead was used in the first half of last century and before.  Flint is not especially old, it's typical.

Certainly this wouldn't be a problem in a new sub-development, but it's manageable. The problem is governance.

nolaegghead

Oh, and replacing the lead pipes can make it worse.

Jeepster47

nolaegghead said:

Oh, and replacing the lead pipes can make it worse.

@nolaegghead ... okay, explain that please.

nolaegghead

@jeepster47.  It's similar to asbestos removal.

http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investigations/toxic-taps/story/toxic-taps-lead-is-still-the-problem/

HeavyG

The current situation in Flint is due solely to the switch to a water source whose chemistry was "aggressive" and the failure of the plants operation authorities  to take steps to address that problem.

Old pipes didn't help their current situation but this problem could have easily been avoided had the source water been fully tested and the treatment plant authorities responded properly in modifying their treatment process.

Fred19Flintstone

Managing corrosivity?  So switching back to the high quality Detroit water will fix this???  Heck, why didn't anybody here think of that?

HeavyG

Jeepster47 said:

EPA?  Maybe they should stop adding more to their menu and start paying attention to what's really important.

The EPA did warn the folks in Flint about a year ago but the local/state authorities basically told them to buzz off.

nolaegghead

Fred19Flintstone said:

Managing corrosivity?  So switching back to the high quality Detroit water will fix this???  Heck, why didn't anybody here think of that?

Someone did think of that, and they knew.  Adding orthophosphate reduces the corrosivity that leaches lead from pipes.  They chose to ignore the corrosivity problem which is the reason all this came about.  You should read up on the problem.

nolaegghead

Why am I reminded of the movie Idiocracy?

henapple

nolaegghead said:

Everyone in the country who is on a municipal water system gets quarterly reports...by law.  If their citizens aren't getting them, someone is breaking the law.  Not surprising, if that's the case, given they completely ignored treating the corrosivity issue for so long.

Safe drinking water is a human right.  If anyone wants to make a political issue out of it, they should just shut up and drink some Flint water.

Safe drinking water is a right? 

Fred19Flintstone

nolaegghead said:

Fred19Flintstone said:

Managing corrosivity?  So switching back to the high quality Detroit water will fix this???  Heck, why didn't anybody here think of that?

Someone did think of that, and they knew.  Adding orthophosphate reduces the corrosivity that leaches lead from pipes.  They chose to ignore the corrosivity problem which is the reason all this came about.  You should read up on the problem and stop focusing on politics with the horse blinders of your world view.

I think you miss the point.  The point is "what do we do now?"  We know there were errors made before, during and after the events that lead to the lead.  The current issues are damage mitigation and assessment.  Managing corrosivity would have been a good idea a while back.  I don't think it's going to work at this stage.  

I think we're discussing different stages of the problem.  I believe you are discussing the steps that could have been taken to avoid the mess.  I agree chemical treatment quite possibly could have lessened or prevented the problem completely.  My point of view is that the toothpaste has left the tube and can't be reversed.  What happens next is where I'm at.

Fred19Flintstone

HeavyG said:

The current situation in Flint is due solely to the switch to a water source whose chemistry was "aggressive" and the failure of the plants operation authorities  to take steps to address that problem.

Old pipes didn't help their current situation but this problem could have easily been avoided had the source water been fully tested and the treatment plant authorities responded properly in modifying their treatment process.

From what I understand, testing occurred at the plant, but nobody went out to take samples at residences.  The infrastructure that's been compromised is between the treatment plant and the citizen's faucet.

HeavyG

Fred19Flintstone said:

Managing corrosivity?  So switching back to the high quality Detroit water will fix this???  Heck, why didn't anybody here think of that?

Flint did reconnect to the Detroit water system.

What will need to happen now is that the Flint water utility operators will need to engage in a fairly comprehensive water flushing program.

I have no idea as to the type of piping materials are used in the majority of the Flint water system (I would guess probably cast and ductile iron most of which is likely unlined) but there is likely no permanent damage that would mean that elevated levels of lead will be a continuing problem for Flint residents.

Older homes will always have a potential source of  lead in their water depending upon the brass fixtures in their dwelling and the type of service line feeding their homes.

fishlessman

get your water tested at the house, we get wells tested here all the time. if its bad at your house is there an area a well digger could put in a well

Fred19Flintstone

HeavyG said:

Fred19Flintstone said:

Managing corrosivity?  So switching back to the high quality Detroit water will fix this???  Heck, why didn't anybody here think of that?

Flint did reconnect to the Detroit water system.

What will need to happen now is that the Flint water utility operators will need to engage in a fairly comprehensive water flushing program.

I have no idea as to the type of piping materials are used in the majority of the Flint water system (I would guess probably cast and ductile iron most of which is likely unlined) but there is likely no permanent damage that would mean that elevated levels of lead will be a continuing problem for Flint residents.

Older homes will always have a potential source of  lead in their water depending upon the brass fixtures in their dwelling and the type of service line feeding their homes.

I believe I said earlier that Flint reconnected to Detroit a while ago before this hit the national news.  It has improved the quality, but there's still lead in the water in many areas of the city.

I'm no engineer, but if the solution was a flush out, then I'm sure the national guard, state police, Red Cross, plumbers and every deputy in the County would not be all over the place passing out water and filters and plumbers installing said filters for those who need that.