OT - A Republican debate question?

jabam

nolaegghead said:

@jabam @mahenryak -  Well said.

I like to think we're a country of people, I giant melting pot, all in this together - we should help each other, be friends despite differences in politics, religion, sports team, north/south blustering, race, heritage, musical propensities, and whatever other differences we may have.  This forum is here because we like to cook.  We also get bored and like to have some fun. 

I'm friends with people all over the map.  We play around on this forum - messing with each other, but we're still friends.  Some people get a little too serious about it.  That's where I love to push it over the edge.  That's called trolling.  It's all good, all fun.  Until it isn't, but then it still is.  

Right on Brotha. I'm stuck here on the left coast.  Would love to come visit you in nawlins we won't agree in politics, but would live to taste your food and shoot the sh---t

nolaegghead

@jabam - Hell yeah!  My door is open to anyone visiting New Orleans on this forum.  I've had more people than I can count over who were visiting or lived near.  It gets to be a little like a dorm room sometimes, which drives SWMBO nuts, but in the end, she and everyone have a good time.  Never drama here, although I'll get hammered on occasion.

mahenryak

^^Well, always good to end the evening on a happy note, with good sentiments shared by all.  Good night all.^^

bgebrent

I'm booking a trip to NO!  Did my 50th there a couple years ago thanks to SWMBO and it was spectacular!  

nolaegghead

@bgebrent - You're welcome to give me a holler and I'd be happy to have a beer or six with you (and convert you to a pragmatist progressive )

jabam

mahenryak said:

^^Well, always good to end the evening on a happy note, with good sentiments shared by all.  Good night all.^^

nolaegghead said:

@jabam - Hell yeah!  My door is open to anyone visiting New Orleans on this forum.  I've had more people than I can count over who were visiting or lived near.  It gets to be a little like a dorm room sometimes, which drives SWMBO nuts, but in the end, she and everyone have a good time.  Never drama here, although I'll get hammered on occasion.

Don't know if I will ever make it your way, but if I do, you will be the first person I call!!!

bgebrent

@nolaegghead, I'm gonna book that trip for next year, dates acceptable for you and SWMBO and enjoy seeing you come to the Libertarian side while we drink beers and laugh!  

bgebrent

Beer before politics of course!

JohnInCarolina

jabam said:

There is dishonesty on both sides, which is stupid IMO. It's pretty clear that political office is a money grab, so people will do and say anything to get elected. I think most people can watch a debate and see who is honest and truly cares about the issues. While every candidate has their opinions on every issue, can't they just state their views and let us decide if we agree or not? Like I said earlier no one has  grabbed my attention.  I'm looking for a true leader ie; Ronald Reagan. At least you knew what he stood for and there was no back peddling. Like his politics or not he was the last great president we have had. 

I've never really understood all the love for Reagan.  I guess a lot of it is nostalgia.   People seem to forget he raised taxes fairly frequently, both as Governor of California and as President.  I think the guy probably wouldn't make it out of the GOP primary these days.

YukonRon

I liked this discussion a lot better when the focus was on what really matters: scallops.
Will Rogers once said " If voting mattered, they never would let you do it." He has a way of looking at things.

mahenryak

JohnInCarolina said:

I've never really understood all the love for Reagan.  I guess a lot of it is nostalgia.   People seem to forget he raised taxes fairly frequently, both as Governor of California and as President.  I think the guy probably wouldn't make it out of the GOP primary these days.

I think you just have to look at the growth of the economy following a post-Carter administration and his straight-forward approach to governance and in dealing with the American people.  No he was not perfect.  And some of the criticism is fair.  Still, one tip that was given to me long ago regarding tax increases is that you need look no further than the House of Representatives, and who was in control at the time.  Yes, Presidents have to sign off on these increases but if you want to see the origin of thought, and impetus for these increases, you don't have to look any further than who was in control of the House at the time.  Reagan would later say that he was snookered by some of the promises that were made to him, but he did nonetheless make the deal.

JohnInCarolina

mahenryak said:

JohnInCarolina said:

I've never really understood all the love for Reagan.  I guess a lot of it is nostalgia.   People seem to forget he raised taxes fairly frequently, both as Governor of California and as President.  I think the guy probably wouldn't make it out of the GOP primary these days.

I think you just have to look at the growth of the economy following a post-Carter administration and his straight-forward approach to governance and in dealing with the American people.  No he was not perfect.  And some of the criticism is fair.  Still, one tip that was given to me long ago regarding tax increases is that you need look no further than the House of Representatives, and who was in control at the time.  Yes, Presidents have to sign off on these increases but if you want to see the origin of thought, and impetus for these increases, you don't have to look any further than who was in control of the House at the time.  Reagan would later say that he was snookered by some of the promises that were made to him, but he did nonetheless make the deal.

Yeah I think that's fine, it just doesn't stop with taxes.  That's really just the beginning.  He also ran up the deficit pretty handily.  He granted legal status to 3 million undocumented immigrants in 1986, and he wasn't exactly kind to Israel as POTUS.  Then there is the "cutting and running" from Lebanon after the terrorist attack on US troops there.  

I guess my point is that any one of these things are really verboten with the current GOP and conservatives in general.   I think there's an image people have of Reagan that simply doesn't jive very well with his record.  That's what I meant by most of it being nostalgia.  

theyolksonyou

@JohnInCarolina I'm too young to remember much about ol Ron, but I think it's "Tear down that wall!"

HeavyG

JohnInCarolina said:

That's what I meant by most of it being nostalgia.  

Nostalgia...sure, but I think it is more a case of selective memory and false memories (just like when Reagan himself claimed he was at the liberation of Buchenwald).

People will remember things the way they want even if that doesn't always jibe with fact.

Like blaming Congress for the tax increases under Reagan. He could have easily vetoed that stuff but the one thing I will give Reagan credit for was that he was a pragmatic politician who realized that sometimes getting things done requires compromise.

mahenryak

JohnInCarolina said:

Yeah I think that's fine, it just doesn't stop with taxes.  That's really just the beginning.  He also ran up the deficit pretty handily.  He granted legal status to 3 million undocumented immigrants in 1986, and he wasn't exactly kind to Israel as POTUS.  Then there is the "cutting and running" from Lebanon after the terrorist attack on US troops there.  

I guess my point is that any one of these things are really verboten with the current GOP and conservatives in general.   I think there's an image people have of Reagan that simply doesn't jive very well with his record.  That's what I meant by most of it being nostalgia.  

Conservative Response:
On immigration, fair point but Reagan was faced with issues while trying to implement the amnesty legislation that Congress had already passed.  Key point here, being that he was not acting unilaterally by executive order.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/20/no-reagan-did-not-offer-an-amnesty-by-lawless-executive-order/

On Israel, again, fair point, but trust was built as Reagan while viewed as tough or hard lined in some aspects was also viewed as respectful to Israel PM, and in at least one instance, persuadable:
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/2014/08/13/reagan-and-israel-the-real-story/

gdenby

Seeing there's some talk of history in this thread, let me draw a historical contrast. We all know how "the Donald" responded to questions about his misogynistic statements. Impolite for sure. Impolitic, hopefully so.

So here's the contrast. When I was a kid, Senator Goldwater was running for president. From what I understand, he's considered a paragon of US conservatism, far more proper than Ronald Reagan, who had few political credentials at the time. There was a "60 Minutes" interview with Mr. Goldwater late in his life. One of the questions put to him was about his opinion of "Hanoi Jane." He didn't say anything. When pressed about his silence, he responded, "My mother taught me that if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all."

Wow, I disagreed w. a lot of his policies, but my respect for his character made me tip my hat.

YukonRon

Being in the service at the time, we were on ready during the r2 administration, 24/7/365. I will say this, I always felt we were doing what was right, and I always felt if we had to be" full on" there would be no waiting until we get a world opinion prior to response. Big difference.
that is all.

Sardonicus

HeavyG said:

JohnInCarolina said:

That's what I meant by most of it being nostalgia.  

. . .  the one thing I will give Reagan credit for was that he was a pragmatic politician who realized that sometimes getting things done requires compromise.

That's exactly the sort of thing that would make life difficult for a modern-day Reagan.

Imagine if . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv3akM36g0o

theyolksonyou

Sardonicus said:

HeavyG said:

JohnInCarolina said:

That's what I meant by most of it being nostalgia.  

. . .  the one thing I will give Reagan credit for was that he was a pragmatic politician who realized that sometimes getting things done requires compromise.

That's exactly the sort of thing that would make life difficult for a modern-day Reagan.

Agree. Everything is so polarized that there is no compromise. 

SGH

Stuffed cheese instead of politics anyone? Just trying to offer a alternative. 

YukonRon

I am so in!

theyolksonyou

@SGH nice Change of pace!  Sign me up. 

SGH

theyolksonyou said:

@SGH nice Change of pace!  Sign me up. 

You have a open space at my abode anytime my friend. Food is on the house. 

Sardonicus

SGH said:

. . . trying to offer a alternative. 

No doubt.

Legume

gdenby said:

Seeing there's some talk of history in this thread, let me draw a historical contrast. We all know how "the Donald" responded to questions about his misogynistic statements. Impolite for sure. Impolitic, hopefully so.

So here's the contrast. When I was a kid, Senator Goldwater was running for president. From what I understand, he's considered a paragon of US conservatism, far more proper than Ronald Reagan, who had few political credentials at the time. There was a "60 Minutes" interview with Mr. Goldwater late in his life. One of the questions put to him was about his opinion of "Hanoi Jane." He didn't say anything. When pressed about his silence, he responded, "My mother taught me that if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all."

Wow, I disagreed w. a lot of his policies, but my respect for his character made me tip my hat.

I don't disagree with this, but he was a man of a different time.  I think character most certainly evolves (or devolves) with the times, with society, it looks different.  He had nothing to gain at that point while Trump has everything to gain by speaking with a different tone.  He needs to capture and hold the media spotlight.

I've never been able to tell if Trump has any interest in being President or if this is his most effective way to influence politics.  I could not be more cynical in my views of the state of politics today, and if Trump is able to shake up the status quo by dropping some ugly, hyper-opinionated views into the conversation, then good for him.  Not sure I could ever vote for the man, but he is a disruptive force that I welcome.

Legume

Oops, looks like I was tapping on my phone and missed the gov cheese redirect.

nolaegghead

Trump is about 10 steps ahead of everyone else.  He will eventually run as an independent  and take 7% or the Republican vote in the election.  Guy is really taking one for the team.

nolaegghead

theyolksonyou

That cat is so purely awesome. 

nolaegghead

Meow