Lump Volatiles Question #6

Botch · December 2015

Okay, lump is made by heating wood in the absence of oxygen, right? The resulting lump of mostly carbon then burns cleanly in your favorite green grill of choice.
We all know to let our lump burn until the white smoke/volatiles burn off, right? The resulting lump of mostly carbon then.... see above.

So how come the volatiles don't burn off during the "lumpification" of the wood? Anyone? Bueller?

Inquiring Minds want to Know.

SGH · December 2015

Botch said:
So how come the volatiles don't burn off during the "lumpification" of the wood? Anyone? Bueller? Inquiring Minds want to Know.

I will give Bueller a chance to answer. However if he does not, then I will take a shot at it my friend. Standing by for Burllers response.

theyolksonyou · December 2015

@sgh I think he has the day off...

SGH · December 2015

theyolksonyou said:

@sgh I think he has the day off...

Who is he? I don't think that I have seen him post before.

theyolksonyou · December 2015

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4zyjLyBp64

NPHuskerFL · December 2015

Correct me if I'm incorrect but, lump is made by burning at high heat but, not in the absence of oxygen. Inquiring minds @stlcharcoal

SGH · December 2015

@theyolksonyou
I now see that the joke is on me. I shall slink quietly off into the night..........

theyolksonyou · December 2015

@sgh honestly, didn't know if you were trolling or not, but I love that movie and couldn't resist posting that clip.

SGH · December 2015

theyolksonyou said:

@sgh honestly, didn't know if you were trolling or not, but I love that movie and couldn't resist posting that clip.

I have heard of the movie, but I have never watched it. That's why I thought that he was asking someone named "Bueller" to respond. Now I'm in the know about Bueller.

stlcharcoal · December 2015

It's not going to burn without oxygen, and it's not baking. Temps in the kilns are upwards of 1500F--it's burning red hot in there. The wood fiber, tars, liquors, etc burn off first, then the carbon is left. Knowing went to cut off the O2 and kill the fire is the key.

Without a retort or some sort of burner with very small quantities, it's impossible to get a perfectly even burn and to do it slow/controlled enough to get it perfect. With US EPA standards, the kilns always have a "pull" on them from the smoke burners--can't slow/low burn even if you wanted to. In any case, the higher the carbon content, the more brittle it gets......so unless you're picking it up piece by piece at the plant, it's going to look like pea gravel by the time you get it. On average, ours is usually 80%.

blasting · December 2015

Botch, hope you don't mind but I'll add a question here. When doing a L&S, I'll take the temp into the 300's in an effort to get good smoke quicker. Am I just wasting lump by doing this?

NPHuskerFL · December 2015

@blasting imho yes, that's not necessary.

Botch · December 2015

Thanks, @stlcharcoal.
@blasting: I figure, since the white smoke is coming out at 200, and it takes so long to "cool" the egg while burning, I just keep it at 200 and wait until the smoke is clear.

stlcharcoal · December 2015

If you're going to smoke something L&S, then there is no reason to "cook" the smoke out of the charcoal unless you're doing something very delicate like fish or cheese with alder......better off with an electric, gas, or some sort of cold smoker setup if you're that adamant about it.

There's no way to burn off all the wood in the charcoal at that low of a temp anyway. Open a BGE after a 10 hr L&S cook and see how much unburned perfectly black charcoal is still in the firebox (the fire never got to it.)

The only way you're going to do this is load the BGE up to capacity, light from the bottom, and get it into clean burn / inferno mode for 10-30 minutes. Then shut it down and let it cool completely overnight. The next day, relight it without disturbing the partially burned charcoal, or adding any. Again, I don't really see the point of this as you're just wasting charcoal--but it's probably the closest you're going to get to a zero-smoke charcoal with this setup.

Ours is mostly oak, with some hickory, maple, cherry, and any other MO hardwoods except walnut. Will the little that is remaining in the charcoal, it's going to be very hard for anyone to discern what species it is. So what I'm saying is, don't waste you're time to burn off the tiny bit of oak left, so you can add apple. Just add the apple and let'er rip.

Thatgrimguy · December 2015

Interesting thread!! Thanks for the insight @stlcharcoal

stlcharcoal · December 2015

The other thing to remember is that all the temperatures you're referring to are dome temps.......none of which mean anything to the charcoal.

Surface temp of the charcoal is what's important. Lump lights off around 670F, so when you put a flame, heat gun, starter cube, etc you'll see it start to light up because that nearby heat source is over 670F. Then the lump has to maintain that temp to keep burning. It may do that by itself, or with the charcoal around it burning to maintain that temp. All depends on how much O2 you let touch it--if it's limited, it's not going to spread because it's missing the other part of the fire triangle. Give it unlimited O2 and it with spread--especially when the ambient temp around it hits 700F+ (i.e. flashover.)

My point is that the dome, grate, etc temp doesn't matter. Either way, the temp in the charcoal is greater than 700F+, but because of the heat lost through the heat sink (ceramic) and exhaust (daisy wheel), you may only see 200F at the dome.

blasting · December 2015

Thank you for the answers - great thread.

gdenby · December 2015

Allow me to offer something I read, but have no way to verify.

Once the carbon in the lump is kindled, in a tightly restricted environment like an Egg, the wood residues do bake away. The carbon oxidization reaction is stronger than the wood components reaction. The available oxygen is used by the carbon, and the heat from that pyrolizes the wood compounds. So the wood never gets burnt away, but it will still decompose into aromatic compounds.

Same goes for added smoking chips/chunks. Absent a sufficient air flow, they just decompose. That is part of the "good" thin blue smoke.

rmr62 · December 2015

for what it's worth, I was flipping channels last night and actually watched the movie again---it's definitely a classic

stlcharcoal · December 2015

gdenby said:

Allow me to offer something I read, but have no way to verify.

Once the carbon in the lump is kindled, in a tightly restricted environment like an Egg, the wood residues do bake away. The carbon oxidization reaction is stronger than the wood components reaction. The available oxygen is used by the carbon, and the heat from that pyrolizes the wood compounds. So the wood never gets burnt away, but it will still decompose into aromatic compounds.

Same goes for added smoking chips/chunks. Absent a sufficient air flow, they just decompose. That is part of the "good" thin blue smoke.

Without reading too much into this, yes.......the BGE is a kiln when you're in L&S mode. If you have smoke wood or charcoal that isn't quite charcoal in it, you are turning it into charcoal. The tars and liquors burn/pyro/evap/whatever at a lower temp than the carbon, so the carbon is what's left.

That's what I worry about when everyone wants these huge basketball size chunks. It's pretty tough to guarantee those are charcoal, because they probably didn't get charred all the way though if they're that big--if they did, they would have broken apart during the processing/bagging. So if those are going in the bag, you're paying for wood, which by volume is heavier, thus you're getting screwed.

With some sort of retort or autoclave, you can get upwards of 100% like that bincotin stuff--but you want to talk about a manufacturing process that has to be. Lump is an all natural product using tehcniques 1000's of years old to make it. It's never going to be perfect everytime.

I Egg'd for 10 years before I became a charcoal guy......knowing a lot about charcoal now really hasn't changed how I cook on the thing. The engineer in me likes to know, but I would be chasing my tail if you try to make absolute conditions in the BGE--way too many variables. When I was a flight instructor, my worst students were smart guys. They understood the aerodynamics, mechanics, etc., but none of that translates to fine motor skills and balance. They would try to think about what every little bump or movement was in the helicopter, and by then it was too late to correct. It was all feel. Same thing here--don't overthink the Egg. It's a 3000 y/o design that runs on an all natural product. Just let it do its thing.

KiterTodd · December 2015

stlcharcoal said:

If you're going to smoke something L&S, then there is no reason to "cook" the smoke out of the charcoal unless you're doing something very delicate like fish or cheese with alder......better off with an electric, gas, or some sort of cold smoker setup if you're that adamant about it.

There's no way to burn off all the wood in the charcoal at that low of a temp anyway. Open a BGE after a 10 hr L&S cook and see how much unburned perfectly black charcoal is still in the firebox (the fire never got to it.)

The only way you're going to do this is load the BGE up to capacity, light from the bottom, and get it into clean burn / inferno mode for 10-30 minutes. Then shut it down and let it cool completely overnight. The next day, relight it without disturbing the partially burned charcoal, or adding any. Again, I don't really see the point of this as you're just wasting charcoal--but it's probably the closest you're going to get to a zero-smoke charcoal with this setup.

Ours is mostly oak, with some hickory, maple, cherry, and any other MO hardwoods except walnut. Will the little that is remaining in the charcoal, it's going to be very hard for anyone to discern what species it is. So what I'm saying is, don't waste you're time to burn off the tiny bit of oak left, so you can add apple. Just add the apple and let'er rip.

Thanks for this. You answered a question I kept forgetting to ask on this forum. Everyone talks about burning off volitiles but it never made sense to me as obviously, all the lump doesn't light.

SO, we do see some white smoke for 10 minutes or so after lighting and then it burns mostly clean. What is going on here? Is that the initial hot spots from the ignition method cooling down and evening out?

SGH · December 2015

I still waiting on Bueller to chime in

SmokingPiney · December 2015

stlcharcoal said:

Same thing here--don't overthink the Egg. It's a 3000 y/o design that runs on an all natural product. Just let it do its thing.

Agree. I'll leave the science to others and just let my Egg do it's thing.

nolaegghead · December 2015

Equilibrium = good smoke.

Little Steven · December 2015

nolaegghead said:

Equilibrium = good smoke.

Equilibrium? Is that the stuff from Panama? Equilibrium red isn't it?

SGH · December 2015

nolaegghead said:

Equilibrium = good smoke.

That's a mighty long word there my friend

YukonRon · December 2015

Little Steven said:

nolaegghead said:

Equilibrium = good smoke.

Equilibrium? Is that the stuff from Panama? Equilibrium red isn't it?

I think it is from Humbolt county in California, likely second or third strain from a primo generation.

bud812 · December 2015

When I was a flight instructor, my worst students were smart guys. They understood the aerodynamics, mechanics, etc., but none of that translates to fine motor skills and balance.
I was a H/D mechanic for over 30 years, I worked with a lot of book smart people. But you get into a weird problem & the could not figure out how to go about finding the problem because it wasn't in a book somewhere. No friggen common sense.

stlcharcoal · December 2015

KiterTodd said:

SO, we do see some white smoke for 10 minutes or so after lighting and then it burns mostly clean. What is going on here? Is that the initial hot spots from the ignition method cooling down and evening out?

I often wonder if it's moisture or other ambient stuff the charcoal absorbs as it sits. Charcoal is extremely porous and will suck up anything near it. If you steam it or get it hot, the pours open even more. For instance, if you throw a piece of charcoal in water, it floats.......steam it or partially burn it first, then it will sink. What this means, I don't know.

We were getting ready to submit for a hazmat exemption for self heating so I rigged up my own little test using the BGE and a FB200.........wanted to get an idea of what was going to happen before $1000 was spent on the test. I took an aluminum buffet pan and filled it with charcoal fines, I put the FB meat probe in the fines and powder and set it on the platesetter. I started the lump in the firebox from below and set it the FB200 to run at what the test had to be run at. I think it was 282F for 24 hrs. Long story short, it didn't self heat and hardly lost any weight (that it didn't gain back within a few hours after being in the ambient air/humidity.)

On the next one, I ran it a little hotter just to see. Around 350F in the 4th hour, the fines raised their temp and ran 20-50F hotter than the grate temp for 8 hrs, then dropped back down to grate temp. I weighed them, and they were 15% less than when I started. Then I let them sit for a few hours, and they went up 7-8% in weight just like the previous test. I can only imagine that after several hours of the hot temps, the moisture was evaporated and whatever tars and liquors that were still in the pours finally felt the hot air and lit off. I don't know. It passed the test and that's all I cared about.

BTW, I did start running it hotter and hotter toward the end to see if I could get them to self ignite. They started "tink-tink-tink" around 700F as expected.

Botch · December 2015

Wow.
I've never bookmarked one of my own threads before; Thanks again
@stlcharcoal !

stlcharcoal · December 2015

BTW, got charcoal coming out your way. Should have been delivered today to a store in Lehi. I think that's south of Ogden.....not sure how far.

Lump Volatiles Question #6

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