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Rib foiling question

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TigerTony
TigerTony Posts: 1,078
I'm doing 3 racks of baby back ribs today. I've tried the popular low and slow methods with spares and B-backs. I've had great results using 3-1-1 and CWM's even straight 6 hrs at 250. They always come out good.
My question is:
(If I choose to use foil).
Instead of foiling each rack individually will I get the same results by putting all the racks in one alum pan and foiling the top of the pan? It's such a pia to foil seperately. Using one pan would be eaisier. What do you think?
Thanks!
"I'm stupidest when I try to be funny" 
New Orleans

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  • SGH
    SGH Posts: 28,791
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    Don't do it my friend. I will give details if needed but I hope you will trust me and don't do it my friend.

    Location- Just "this side" of Biloxi, Ms.

    Status- Standing by.

    The greatest barrier against all wisdom, the stronghold against knowledge itself, is the single thought, in ones mind, that they already have it all figured out. 

  • Ladeback69
    Ladeback69 Posts: 4,482
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    If your trying to keep them warmfor a long time no, but for an hour a so maybe. What I would do is just FTC them. That's what I may do today with mine. I am also going to add butter and brown sugar inside the foil. I've seen this done on Pitmasters and want to try it, but I'm cooking mine turbo method.
    XL, WSM, Coleman Road Trip Gas Grill

    Kansas City, Mo.
  • SGH
    SGH Posts: 28,791
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    Just my opinion but I wouldn't foil the ribs. I never have for home cooking as I see no need.

    Location- Just "this side" of Biloxi, Ms.

    Status- Standing by.

    The greatest barrier against all wisdom, the stronghold against knowledge itself, is the single thought, in ones mind, that they already have it all figured out. 

  • xiphoid007
    xiphoid007 Posts: 536
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    Multiple pieces of small meat touching = 1 big piece of meat. It just doesn't work the same. It has to do with surface area to mass ratio, but listen to SGH, and don't do it. Either wrap individually or don't. You've had good results either way, so just go with what worked before

    If it ain't broke. . .
    Pittsburgh, PA - 1 LBGE
  • lousubcap
    lousubcap Posts: 32,385
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    The foil is about the only way to achieve "fall off the bone" ribs.  If that is your goal then any way you foil for a period of time will get you there.  If that is not your goal then skip the foil unless needed for transport and realize how they will end up.  Just an opinion and we all know what those are worth...
    Louisville; Rolling smoke in the neighbourhood. # 38 for the win.  Life is too short for light/lite beer!  Seems I'm livin in a transitional period.
  • Sardonicus
    Sardonicus Posts: 1,700
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    What SGH said.         

    What would you have gained?  About 20 cents worth of aluminum foil?             

    "Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs and barbecuing."      - George Burns

  • TigerTony
    TigerTony Posts: 1,078
    edited May 2014
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    lousubcap said:
    The foil is about the only way to achieve "fall off the bone" ribs.  If that is your goal then any way you foil for a period of time will get you there.  If that is not your goal then skip the foil unless needed for transport and realize how they will end up.  Just an opinion and we all know what those are worth...
    I understand. My problem is some of the guest are novice rib eaters ;) that guage according to "fall-of-the-bone" ablilty.
    This is why I'm thinking of foiling. But was looking for a quicker way to achieve fall-of-bone then foiling each individually.
    "I'm stupidest when I try to be funny" 
    New Orleans

  • xiphoid007
    xiphoid007 Posts: 536
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    Great ribs won't come quick/easy. The good thing is if your guests are rib novices, even if they're mediocre, they will still be the best things they've ever eaten.
    Pittsburgh, PA - 1 LBGE
  • TexanOfTheNorth
    TexanOfTheNorth Posts: 3,951
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    Seems it would be easier to tell a novice rib eater than ribs should not fall off the bone but, rather, pull cleanly off the bone.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, "spa-Peggy" is kind of like spaghetti. I'm not sure what Peggy does different, if anything. But it's the one dish she's kind of made her own.
    ____________________
    Aurora, Ontario, Canada
  • xiphoid007
    xiphoid007 Posts: 536
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    I disagree. It would be easier to tell them that however they come out, that it is exactly perfect and how they should be! :^o
    Pittsburgh, PA - 1 LBGE
  • gdenby
    gdenby Posts: 6,239
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    The upside of foiling is that the trapped steam guarantees the connective tissue will melt, rendering the meat tender. It also may allow the trapped steam to over cook the protein, resulting in what many folks think is fall off the bone, but really is mush that is very dry and gummy without a bucket of sauce.

    Which I why I always just give them enough time out of foil to pass the bend test.

    But if you do decide to foil in a pan, try to make one layer. As above, when pieces of meat touch, they cook like 1 larger piece. The places of contact will be less done than those exposed to air and fluid alone.
  • SenecaTheYounger
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    Rather than try to sell you one way or another regarding your method, I will try to answer the question you asked.

    If you decide to foil, foiling them all together in one pan will not cause a problem or extend the cooking time.  They will not cook like one piece of meat. 

    Although I no longer foil, yes, you can foil in one large pan.  This will make it easier for you, and the ribs will spend less time cooling as they would if you were to try an wrapped each individually.

    The steam is what is cooking them primarily, not direct contact with the liquid, so there is no need to rotate them top to bottom during the braise.




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  • SGH
    SGH Posts: 28,791
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    @SenecaTheYounger‌
    Sir I normally agree with you as you give sound advice. But I disagree on this issue . I'm not saying that you can't achieve acceptable results by putting them all in one pan. But that being said that is usually what you get acceptable but not superior results. I have tried this many times over the course of many years and it just doesn't work out for the better. Not trying to start a argument nor match wits with you as I know you are far more educated than me. But in this instance I stand by what I said that if you must wrap then individually is far better. I can't give you the science behind it but I can give you the facts about how it will turn out. Again this is just what has worked for me over the course of many years. I'm always looking for a faster and easier way but loading a pan up with several racks of ribs is just inviting disaster my friend. And for the record this is the only time I have ever disagreed with your thoughts. Doesn't mean that I'm right my friend.

    Location- Just "this side" of Biloxi, Ms.

    Status- Standing by.

    The greatest barrier against all wisdom, the stronghold against knowledge itself, is the single thought, in ones mind, that they already have it all figured out. 

  • Skiddymarker
    Skiddymarker Posts: 8,522
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    Respecting both opinions, I'm more in Seneca's camp. SWMBO likes her ribs ruined, fall off the bone slathered in some sweet/tangy BBQ sauce. She actually prefers crock pot ribs to those done on the egg. Many of our friends are the same, dry ribs with a chew pull off the bone are simply not cooked, in their opinion. 

    Given my MBGE, I tend to cut large racks in half, using a 3-1-1, I foil flat if doing two 1/2 racks or stack them if doing three or four 1/2 racks. I don't use a pan, I use HD foil. Double foiled with seams on opposite sides allows me to flip the package 1/2 way thru the foil cycle, the ribs self baste and have never had a leak. 
    I think tight foiling in a pan will work the same. 
    Delta B.C. - Whiskey and steak, because no good story ever started with someone having a salad!
  • SenecaTheYounger
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    I don't keep track of who does or doesn't agree with me. You have no worries either way, as far as I am concerned.

    I simply recall that on many occasions in the past when I found myself cooking a large number of ribs, it was wasted effort to braise them wrapped singly, rather than in a deep foil pan. I would smoke them, braise an hour wrapped in a pan together, and then back to the smoker unwrapped.

    No disasters.

    As you have, wrapping singly, I have done this en mass wrap many times myself too.  And not had disaster.  But it is clear that I am incorrect.

    And so it follows that if I am incorrect, and have had (though unaware of them) a number of disastrous cooks, it means that @tigertony should not at all listen to my advice.

    But if he wishes to have a "disastrous" cook, like the many I have had (apparently), and wants to do it simply, without the burden of foiling and wrapping every slab singly, then a single foil pan for an hour's time will suffice.

    His decision to foil in the first place indicates to me what kind of result he is looking for.  Given that, an hour in a foil pan versus wrapped singly will have no measurable difference (good or bad), certainly not disastrously.  But all that proves, I am sure, is that I do not have any familiarity with what a disaster must be.

    Some cooks foil pairs of ribs, so that six slabs would require three separate packages.  They too must be meeting disaster.  It would do good to let them know this, because they have been enjoying it unaware of their folly.  Someone ought let them know they are not enjoying their results to our satisfaction..



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  • SGH
    SGH Posts: 28,791
    edited May 2014
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    Brother you said it best. Ruined and mushy is what you usually get and it's made up for with a heavy slather of sauce. If this is the desired end result then the pan trick is the way to go. But short of that it's not. As I said also I'm just not from the foiling camp. Always preferred my ribs straight cooked. Don't care for the mushy ones at all my friends.

    Location- Just "this side" of Biloxi, Ms.

    Status- Standing by.

    The greatest barrier against all wisdom, the stronghold against knowledge itself, is the single thought, in ones mind, that they already have it all figured out. 

  • Grambler
    Grambler Posts: 153
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    So thanks for starting an argument Tony!!! Lol, I kid. I am actually doing a couple ranks of baby backs today as well and I'm going to try foiling for an hour. What liquid are you going to use in your foil pack?
  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
    edited May 2014
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    The issue of foiled or not is not at question.  The gentleman asked about foiling singly, or all together.

    Based on my experience, I related that multiple slabs foiled in a single pan versus each wrapped singly yielded the same results for the same amount of cook time

    It is not possible for multiple slabs of ribs in a pan to go mushy in one hour, while a single slab of ribs wrapped by itself, in the same braising liquid, at the same temperatures would not.

    For the multiple ribs wrapped in one pan to go mushy, after all, would require them to cook faster than the singly wrapped ribs sharing the same grill, no?

    And yet our tiger tony is being told that to wrap them multiply would actually slow their cooking.

    So how could they simultaneously cook more slowly if wrapped together in one pan touching, while also turning to mush (by cooking more), in the same hour?

    If your point is that foiled ribs can be mushy, I'd agree.  But only when overcooked in the braise. 

    But tigertony seems only to be asking if his typical results (mushy or otherwise) will be significantly altered by foiling together vs. singly for the same period of time.

    My experience? No.  And certainly not in an hour's time.
    But as you have established, my results have been disastrous, and therefore my experience flawed, and advice inaccurate.  I thank you for clarifying that. tonytiger ought not to try something which could save him time and trouble. He can gain nothing from trying something new for himself.  Best to stick to the rules, even though no reasons are given for them. 

    I am perhaps out of sorts given a trip cut short, poor weather multiplying the effect (both there and here). Don't mind me.






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  • TigerTony
    TigerTony Posts: 1,078
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    Okay guys,
    Thanks so much for all the advice. looks like I started a heated debate :) sorry about that!

    Here's my plan. After 3-1/2 hours at 260*ish I'm going to lay them flat in the bottom of the alum pan, add a little appel juice and apple cider vinegar and cover the pan tightly with foil. for one hour.
    Then I will remove the plate setter and finish the ribs direct for about an hour the whole time basting with bq sauce.
    I'm attaching a pic I just took after the ribs being on for 2 hours
    Thanks again and I'll post the results later.
    Tony
    "I'm stupidest when I try to be funny" 
    New Orleans

  • SenecaTheYounger
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    When I did them this way, I would stay set up indirect for the last hour.  Try direct if you want.  The sauce will gum up quicker than indirect, but you risk scorching if there is a lot of sugar.


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  • Monty77
    Monty77 Posts: 667
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    When I did them this way, I would stay set up indirect for the last hour.  Try direct if you want.  The sauce will gum up quicker than indirect, but you risk scorching if there is a lot of sugar.


    My experience would agree with this comment, stay indirect, avoid scorching the bottom!  The sauce will still firm up and be amazing!  Enjoy and have fun! 
    Large BGE 2011, XL BGE 2015, Mini Max 2015, and member of the "North of the Border Smokin Squad" Canadian Outdoor Chef from London, Ontario, Canada

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/monty77/

  • TigerTony
    TigerTony Posts: 1,078
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    Monty77 said:

    When I did them this way, I would stay set up indirect for the last hour.  Try direct if you want.  The sauce will gum up quicker than indirect, but you risk scorching if there is a lot of sugar.


    My experience would agree with this comment, stay indirect, avoid scorching the bottom!  The sauce will still firm up and be amazing!  Enjoy and have fun! 
    Good point! I'll finish the ribs indirect. I'll try to post pics of the final results.
    Thanks so much for all the advice.
    Tony
    "I'm stupidest when I try to be funny" 
    New Orleans

  • xiphoid007
    xiphoid007 Posts: 536
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    Let's start another debate!

    So sauce and finish direct vs indirect. . .

    I vote sauce and stay indirect. To my mind, doing this thickens the sauce by reducing it over gentle heat. By doing this direct, you may achieve it faster, but you risk burning a sauce with a lot of sugar in it. However, if you sauce and carefully finish direct, you will change the chemical makeup of the sauce via browning (the maillard reaction). While it can have tasty results, this requires more work and if you burn them you ruin hours of hard work.

    So I got indirect after saucing, but there are merits to direct.

    Ready, fight!
    X_X
    Pittsburgh, PA - 1 LBGE
  • Skiddymarker
    Skiddymarker Posts: 8,522
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    TT - depending on what sauce you are finishing with the use of cider+apple juice is a good sweet tangy mix but may not be needed. I've used everything from tap water to a rather not so good leftover white wine with the same results as the juice and vinegar treatment. 

    Delta B.C. - Whiskey and steak, because no good story ever started with someone having a salad!
  • TexanOfTheNorth
    TexanOfTheNorth Posts: 3,951
    edited May 2014
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    Sauced ribs... never!   [-X
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, "spa-Peggy" is kind of like spaghetti. I'm not sure what Peggy does different, if anything. But it's the one dish she's kind of made her own.
    ____________________
    Aurora, Ontario, Canada
  • nolaegghead
    nolaegghead Posts: 42,102
    edited May 2014
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    When steaming in a closed environment (foil or covered pan, basically a braising operation), you have food that is cool relative to the boiling point of water.  Water at the bottom will steam, and that steam will condense on the relatively cool food, change phase back to water and return via gravity to the pool at the bottom, once again to steam and condense.  As the water runs down the meat, it will dissolve salt and mechanically wash (like a dishwasher) the surfaces.  Having a tall stack versus a single stack may increase the dishwasher effect, but since most will sauce and cook direct as a final step, this may not make a difference in the final product.

    Braising is a combination of steaming and dry heat, that ratio will also change depending on how you package the contents of your foil.  But will it make a difference?  Probably not over the course of the entire 3-1-1 process.
    ______________________________________________
    I love lamp..
  • TigerTony
    TigerTony Posts: 1,078
    edited May 2014
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    "I'm stupidest when I try to be funny" 
    New Orleans

  • TigerTony
    TigerTony Posts: 1,078
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    Can't wait they look so good.
    I decided to finish them indirect, sauced them often.
    Now they are ready to take off they, seem very tender yet not falling apart. Perfect! (I think)
    Thanks again!
    "I'm stupidest when I try to be funny" 
    New Orleans

  • Foghorn
    Foghorn Posts: 9,846
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    Dude, where do you live?  If the neighbors catch wind of those ribs you're not going to have enough.

    XXL BGE, Karebecue, Klose BYC, Chargiller Akorn Kamado, Weber Smokey Mountain, Grand Turbo gasser, Weber Smoky Joe, and the wheelbarrow that my grandfather used to cook steaks from his cattle

    San Antonio, TX

  • cazzy
    cazzy Posts: 9,136
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    Those ribs look disastrous brother!!! =)) :))
    Just a hack that makes some $hitty BBQ....