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Bagels Egged or Oven?

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This morning I posted a photo of a freshly baked breakfast bagel on WAYCTD and received compliments and requests for the deets. Bagels have always been my go-to breakfast nosh and I had become increasingly disappointed with the quality available in my local area.  What has become affectionately known as The Crazy Bagel Project in my family, I have embarked upon a baking journey studying, modifying and tweaking what everyone considered a good bagel. Admittedly, this is a recipe in progress which will never be “finished”. But it’s pretty darn good according to all of my cul-de-sac neighbors who receive bagel bakery bags on their front porches on my baking marathon mornings!  There is nothing special about the recipe…flour, water, salt, yeast. Sort of says it all. I’ve also modified  it for cinnamon raisin, blueberry, cranberry/orange, and pumpernickel.   The culinary dream I have been chasing is the dark golden exterior color, shattering crunch of the crust, open textured crumb, and deeply flavored bread. It is a pursuit influenced by time, temperature, handling of the dough and of course the baking vessel. During the summer, I have enjoyed great success baking the bagels on my LGBGE (which I assume would be similar to a WFO),  but admittedly I defer to the the ease and perfection of baking in my oven, a Gaggenau EB388.  So here it is.  Questions?  Just ask!  Enjoy!



IL 
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Comments

  • GrateEggspectations
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    Looks amazing. My wife loves bagels and I could score major points if I could pull this off!
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    Looks amazing. My wife loves bagels and I could score major points if I could pull this off!
    Thank you @GrateEggspectations. I have confidence you can do this!
    IL 
  • Foghorn
    Foghorn Posts: 9,927
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    Good question.  The answer is "YES!"

    XXL BGE, Karebecue, Klose BYC, Chargiller Akorn Kamado, Weber Smokey Mountain, Grand Turbo gasser, Weber Smoky Joe, and the wheelbarrow that my grandfather used to cook steaks from his cattle

    San Antonio, TX

  • ColbyLang
    ColbyLang Posts: 3,545
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    Thanks for the recipe!!
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,750
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    Holy lox and shmears, Batman! Thank you for the detailed bagel protocol. Very much looking forward to trying it. 

    Have you tried diastatic malt powder in the water bath? Asking because I have a bag of that, but don't have non-diastatic malt powder handy. The interwebz says baking diastatic malt powder for a bit will make it non-diastatic, but wondering what your experience has been.

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • ColbyLang
    ColbyLang Posts: 3,545
    edited March 2023
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    Non diastatic malt has little to no enzyme activity. Used primarily for sweetening and some coloring effects. We use it in a couple of formulations at the bakery to bring sweetness, but not cane sugar sweetness
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,750
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    ColbyLang said:
    Non diastatic malt has little to no enzyme activity. Used primarily for sweetening and some coloring effects. We use it in a couple of formulations at the bakery to bring sweetness, but not cane sugar sweetness
    When added as an ingredient in the dough, correct? I wonder if enzyme activity has any impact when added to the water for boiling bagels.

    I may not need to dwell on this. Baking the diastatic malt for a few minutes is easy enough.

    I'm stoked that @LetsEat did all the heavy lifting and worked out the kinks in the recipe. Thanks again!

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • Langner91
    Langner91 Posts: 2,120
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    I use my BGE Rotisserie® for bagels.  They slip right over the square drive rod!


    Clinton, Iowa
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    ColbyLang said:
    Thanks for the recipe!!
    You are most welcome @ColbyLang. I’m nothing but a home baker. Please feel free to enlighten us with your expert  wisdom and expertise. 
    IL 
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    caliking said:
    Holy lox and shmears, Batman! Thank you for the detailed bagel protocol. Very much looking forward to trying it. 

    Have you tried diastatic malt powder in the water bath? Asking because I have a bag of that, but don't have non-diastatic malt powder handy. The interwebz says baking diastatic malt powder for a bit will make it non-diastatic, but wondering what your experience has been.
    You are most welcome @caliking. Let me know how your bake turns out. I see @ColbyLang clarified the differences of non-diastatic and diastatic malt powder. I settled on the non-diastatic for the water bath as I thought it produced a very subtle flavor and did contribute to the color.  You will also come across recipes that utilize honey, molasses and brown sugar in the bath. For me, they produce a very sweet crust and weren’t conducive to an even brown color. 
     
    IL 
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    Langner91 said:
    I use my BGE Rotisserie® for bagels.  They slip right over the square drive rod!


    Too funny!  

    As much as I covet a WFO, the closest I will ever come is my BGE with the plate setter and pizza stone  combination. The combination does produce superior bagels. I’m anxious to see your BGE Rotisserie application.  ;)
    IL 
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    https://www.gaggenau.com/global/appliances/ovens/eb-333

    The real credit to quality baking  is my oven. Seriously, if any of you are in the market for a new oven or want to improve your baking look no further.  This is my second Gaggenau and when we move I will have this new model. It’s only money. Or so I have learned on this forum.   :)
    IL 
  • ColbyLang
    ColbyLang Posts: 3,545
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    LetsEat said:
    ColbyLang said:
    Thanks for the recipe!!
    You are most welcome @ColbyLang. I’m nothing but a home baker. Please feel free to enlighten us with your expert  wisdom and expertise. 
    Anything you want to know about high speed automation in a bakery, I’m your guy!! We measure output in tonnage per hour. Can’t really call it a bakery as much as a manufacturing facility 
  • Canugghead
    Canugghead Posts: 11,697
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    Wow, thanks for sharing your labour of love unselfishly, you did this justice with its own thread. Saved and printed.

    Dumb question, If I can't find non diastatic malt powder readily, are there other names for it, and are there suitable substitutes? I've used malt syrup, honey in the past (just read your reply as to why these are not as good).

    Also, I used to struggle with not deflating/deforming the dough when transferring to the water bath. Not sure if it'll be needed with your dough consistency but this is what works for me... After shaping, I place each bagel on a small piece of parchment paper, when it's ready to boil I flip it face down into the water with minimum touching/handling; the paper releases easily once it's wet.

    Not sure when I'll get around to trying this though, given that I've been too lazy to even do my ho hum bagel that takes just few hours  :)  
    canuckland
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,750
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    @Canugghead - question was not asked of me, but a little googling earlier learned me that baking diastatic malt powder (available on Amazon) at 350F x 5 mins should deactivate the enzyme. 

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    Wow, thanks for sharing your labour of love unselfishly, you did this justice with its own thread. Saved and printed.

    Dumb question, If I can't find non diastatic malt powder readily, are there other names for it, and are there suitable substitutes? I've used malt syrup, honey in the past (just read your reply as to why these are not as good).

    Also, I used to struggle with not deflating/deforming the dough when transferring to the water bath. Not sure if it'll be needed with your dough consistency but this is what works for me... After shaping, I place each bagel on a small piece of parchment paper, when it's ready to boil I flip it face down into the water with minimum touching/handling; the paper releases easily once it's wet.

    Not sure when I'll get around to trying this though, given that I've been too lazy to even do my ho hum bagel that takes just few hours  :)  
    You are most kind.  Who knows, you may decide to whip up a batch of bagels someday. This dough is very easy to manipulate with its long ferment and cold temperature. The key to easy release from the parchment paper is a healthy dusting of flour prior to placing the formed bagels on the tray. I do like your suggestions of individual papers and wet release technique. I struggle with pretzels and am going to employ your suggestion on my next pretzel bake. Thanks! 

    @caliking should be promoted to the front of the class for researching and addressing the non-diastatic question. It’s good to have options. Malt syrup is another good option that I have used in the past. It provides that hint of malt flavor in the crust. In reality, it comes down to personal preference and all are viable options.  I ultimately settled on non-diastatic malt powder as it was more readily available and I just preferred the results.  King Arthur Baking Company is an excellent source for baking supplies and one can often catch them at discount on regular company sales. I’ve also acquired obscure baking items on Amazon. 

    I hope this helps @Caungghead. Happy baking!
    IL 
  • Canugghead
    Canugghead Posts: 11,697
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    Thanks for the follow up, will share my story one day when I try it. 
    canuckland
  • Langner91
    Langner91 Posts: 2,120
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    I didn't say it before, but those bagels look awesome!
    Clinton, Iowa
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    Langner91 said:
    I didn't say it before, but those bagels look awesome!
    Thank you!
    IL 
  • Canugghead
    Canugghead Posts: 11,697
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    Just realised, unlike yours, my quickie bagels are rested/proofed at RT for hours, hence the stickiness. Going to try without individual pieces of paper, worst case scenario I can still cut up the big sheet  :)

    Another silly question, not sure if I noticed any significant difference between IY and ADY, ADY is easier to find here. Perhaps doc @caliking can research this for us as well  ;)

    canuckland
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,750
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    Just realised, unlike yours, my quickie bagels are rested/proofed at RT for hours, hence the stickiness. Going to try without individual pieces of paper, worst case scenario I can still cut up the big sheet  :)

    Another silly question, not sure if I noticed any significant difference between IY and ADY, ADY is easier to find here. Perhaps doc @caliking can research this for us as well  ;)

    I've had the same question in the past, and I think the difference is that ADY benefits from proofing and rehydration first, hence the recipes that call for adding some water +/- sugar to the yeast, prior to adding to the flour or dough. I use SAF instant yeast, and have had good results, so haven't bothered much about the ADY vs. IY difference. 

    @ColbyLang likely has a more informed (read= correct) answer to this question, though.

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • ColbyLang
    ColbyLang Posts: 3,545
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    So ADY and IY should both be bloomed in warm water (with sugar). We use fresh cake yeast that is less than one week old to ensure viability. It is a live ingredient. We get deliveries weekly from the manufacturer in Memphis. Anytime I do anything at home requiring any yeast, I just pilfer enough to get my recipe done. We’re talking minuscule amounts compared to the 6000# a week we use at the bakery. 
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,750
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    @LetsEat - thinking of taking a crack at this over the weekend. 

     Your recipe calls for overnight fermentation in the fridge on Day 1 and Day 2. How many hours is that? Aiming for baking on Sun morning, so I was thinking of starting the poolish (and lox) this morning, mixing the dough this evening. Pull it out of the fridge tomorrow morning, portion it out, then back in the fridge until Sun morning. The second fermentation would be 20-24h, which seems a tad long?

    Could you share your typical timeline? 

    I'm excited about giving this a whirl!

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    @caliking @ColbyLang @Canugghead. I apologize for the delay in responding. I’ve been nursing 150# newfound who decided to chase a squirrel, resulting in surgery for ACL. Never a dull moment with this big boy. 
    IL 
  • Canugghead
    Canugghead Posts: 11,697
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    Sorry to hear about your big fella, hope he's healing well. FWIW he's 'stronger' than me, lol
    canuckland
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    caliking said:
    @LetsEat - thinking of taking a crack at this over the weekend. 

     Your recipe calls for overnight fermentation in the fridge on Day 1 and Day 2. How many hours is that? Aiming for baking on Sun morning, so I was thinking of starting the poolish (and lox) this morning, mixing the dough this evening. Pull it out of the fridge tomorrow morning, portion it out, then back in the fridge until Sun morning. The second fermentation would be 20-24h, which seems a tad long?

    Could you share your typical timeline? 

    I'm excited about giving this a whirl!
    Timing with this recipe isn’t all that critical.  Here is my general schedule:

    Day 1 7-9am. Mix Poolish. I try to maximize the ferment for a full 8hours to develop flavor. Remember there is the additional two hours for completion of the dough and stretch/folding. Long way of saying allow for 10hour total. 

    Day 2. Sometime in late afternoon (I usually do it as preparing dinner), form the bagels. Again, the long cold ferment adds flavor and character to the dough.  IMO it’s easiest to weigh and form the dough when it’s cold. If it fights you, give it a rest. What you don’t want to have happen is a significant rise. Be sure to thoroughly dust the parchment paper before placing the formed bagels on it.  

    Day 3.  Boil/Bake whoever it’s convenient. Preheat oven. You know your oven best.  The goal is to have that environment hot to produce the oven spring and superior exterior crust. If it’s not too late today, order that Gaggenau EB333 you won’t regret it.  ;) When the oven has preheated bring the water bath to a gentle boil. This is when I remove the bagels from the refrigerator. The bagels are easily removed from the parchment when they are cold. They will sufficient rise. Once placed in the water bath they will rise again.  The final rise occurs when they hit the hot stone/oven temp.

    I know the long fermentations seem excessive but that is my preference to develop maximum flavor.  Good luck!  Let me know if you have questions along the way. I’m on “private duty nursing” with this #150 canine orthopedic patient so I won’t be going anywhere.  :s
    IL 
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    ColbyLang said:
    So ADY and IY should both be bloomed in warm water (with sugar). We use fresh cake yeast that is less than one week old to ensure viability. It is a live ingredient. We get deliveries weekly from the manufacturer in Memphis. Anytime I do anything at home requiring any yeast, I just pilfer enough to get my recipe done. We’re talking minuscule amounts compared to the 6000# a week we use at the bakery. 
    Wow!  6000# of yeast is beyond me!  I thought I was excessive purchasing 2# packages.  :)

    I  bake exclusively with IY and ADY. The advantage of IY is that it doesn’t need to be bloomed/proofed. I incorporate it directly with the dry ingredients.  With ADY I bloom/proof in water and depending upon the recipe a measure of sugar. 
    IL 
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,750
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    No worries @LetsEat. I forgot that I had to take caliprince to a thing today. Took the dough tub with me, folded a few times during the 2 hrs at RT, and tried not to look like too much of a nerd :glasses: . Then stuck it in a cooler until we could get back home. 

    Gravlax is curing in the fridge. Looking forward to tomorrow morning!

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    caliking said:
    No worries @LetsEat. I forgot that I had to take caliprince to a thing today. Took the dough tub with me, folded a few times during the 2 hrs at RT, and tried not to look like too much of a nerd :glasses: . Then stuck it in a cooler until we could get back home. 

    Gravlax is curing in the fridge. Looking forward to tomorrow morning!

    Too funny!  I can imagine the side glances! 
    IL 
  • LetsEat
    LetsEat Posts: 458
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    This batch went four days and was perfect. Excuse the dirty oven. 
    IL