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OT: Gas Stoves And Indoor Air Pollution

2

Comments

  • Canugghead
    Canugghead Posts: 11,316
    How long was the fight to ban indoor smoking in public places?
    canuckland
  • Langner91
    Langner91 Posts: 2,120
    RRP said:
    Though our furnace is natural gas as well as our hot water heater our stove is an electric JENN AIR with a down draft fan centered in my kitchen island.

    ! can NEVER EVER have a gas stove here...SO I AM JEALOUS!!!...

    And due to my age etc etc etc I will have to live here until I die and keep on cooking on my electric stove inside, but thankfully using lump charcoal cooking outside!

    LONG LIVE outdoor grills!!!
    @RRP, even if it takes all your money, never say never.  If you have natural gas in the place, you can have a gas stove.  You might need to install it in your bedroom or bathroom, but you can have a gas stove.

    Some houses are just easier to install them where they are wanted.
    Clinton, Iowa
  • Gulfcoastguy
    Gulfcoastguy Posts: 6,248
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. Not that it will matter to me since my house is all electric with no natural gas on my side of the street.
     I do wonder if outside gas grills are next though.
  • JohnInCarolina
    JohnInCarolina Posts: 30,694
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    "I've made a note never to piss you two off." - Stike
  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 32,561
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. Not that it will matter to me since my house is all electric with no natural gas on my side of the street.
     I do wonder if outside gas grills are next though.
    They could start with the school zones. No bbq in a school zone
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
  • Legume
    Legume Posts: 14,555
    We had a charcoal grill built into the kitchen when I was a kid. All brick with one of those firemagic drop in boxes that would let you raise or lower the pan where the charcoal was.  The grill had its own flue and was on the opposite side of the fireplace which was in a different room.  House was built late 50s. I guess it seemed like a good idea then, but people got smarter.  Parents never removed it like a lot of the neighbors did, but they did replace their electric stove top with a Jenn-air so they could keep on grilling inside when they wanted to.  It was years later that I realized how batshit crazy that was, they had great weather.
  • Legume
    Legume Posts: 14,555
    And for anyone that's lived in a house 50 or so years old and one that's new - the older homes all have airflow whether you want it or not.  Newer homes are airtight by comparison.
  • Canugghead
    Canugghead Posts: 11,316
    Folks, please respect our forum elder's wish...

    canuckland
  • HeavyG
    HeavyG Posts: 10,288
    Legume said:
    And for anyone that's lived in a house 50 or so years old and one that's new - the older homes all have airflow whether you want it or not.  Newer homes are airtight by comparison.
    And being more airtight is likely one of the reasons it seems there is an increase in the cases of asthma and some other maladies. Tight houses increase exposure to outgassing chemicals, stove combustion byproduct, etc., etc.
    In the interests of energy efficiency every house should be tight but they should also have an air to air heat exchanger to ensure one is less likely to be exposed to "mala aria".

    I bought a neat yakitori grill last year that I have used indoors a few times on our kitchen peninsula but I also have a carbon monoxide detector I place nearby and with a window cracked and the stove exhaust fan (which vents outside) running the CO detector barely moves. With my luck tho I wouldn't be surprised if my headstone says "He thought it would be safe".
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” ― Philip K. Diçk




  • RRP
    RRP Posts: 25,834
    RRP said:
    I'm NOT trying to start a political feud. This is from the Washington Examiner:

    The legacy media and the Left attempted to brush off the initial gas stove controversy and outcry from the Right as nothing more than an unsubstantiated, irrational conspiracy theory. The White House even insisted that President Joe Biden does not support a ban on gas stoves after one of his federal consumer safety officials suggested that such a ban was on the table. 

    But, as we are seeing in so many other instances, Republicans were right all along. President Joe Biden’s Department of Energy is, in fact, pushing an extreme regulation that would effectively eliminate nearly all gas stoves. 

    The Department of Energy is conducting this gas stove grab through a rule that would impose extreme energy performance standards on residential cooktops. The department’s proposed rule sets requirements for gas cooktops at the maximum technologically feasible or "max-tech" level. Based on the Department of Energy's own analysis, gas cooktops at the max-tech level represent just 4% of current market share and exclude all conventional free-stand ranges. 

    Any rule that causes 96% of the products available today to be eliminated from the market is an extreme regulation. In fact, it is essentially an outright ban on gas stoves.

    Ron, any opinion piece written by a Republican member of Congress and published in the Washington Examiner should probably be taken with a very large grain of salt.  

    Here's a slightly more balanced piece on the topic:

    https://www.eenews.net/articles/doe-rule-may-block-50-of-new-gas-stoves/

    Make of it what you will, but I think the outrage is more... well, hot air... than substance.  
    WOW, John…I think this is already some kind of new record! Your reply has received 1 like and 1 dislike…BUT I have somehow already exceeded your ratings with 3 dislikes! I don’t understand why if someone disagrees that they can not have the ‘nads to reveal themselves and explain their objection(s)! 

    (though I personally have not ruled out the idea that that loser has created more accounts here…just too bad that the @buffalo doesn’t look into this “dislike without being identified” ability.

    Re-gasketing America one yard at a time.
  • QDude
    QDude Posts: 1,052
    CTMike said:
    I can’t seem to find the original thread discussing this, so I am starting a new one. 

    In that thread, this study was linked/discussed:

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/gas-stoves-air-pollution-1.6394514

    Then I came across this study from Massachusetts correlating 30 years of data linking natural gas stoves to a marked increase in childhood asthma:

    https://www.massmed.org/Publications/Vital-Signs---Member-Publication/Connection-Between-Natural-Gas-Stoves-and-Pediatric-Asthma/

    From what I can find propane (what we use) produces lower amounts of benzene and nitrous oxide than natural gas, but I’m not taking any chances considering how severe SWMBO’s asthma is. We installed this range in 2014, and her asthma got markedly worse in 2016. I know that is not enough evidence to absolutely correlate one to the other, but as I said above, I’m not taking any chances.  

    So with all that said, I am looking at 36” wide induction ranges. I was considering Wolf, but not available until November, and I’m not willing to wait that long. Models that have a 4 to 6 week lead time are:

    Fisher & Paykel RIV3-365
    Bertazzoni MAST365INSXT
    Bosch HIS8655SS
    ILVE UMI09NS3SSC

    Anyone have any experience with any of the above brands? 

    My cookware is all induction capable so no worries there. 
    The article from Massachusetts says there is an "association" between gas stoves and asthma.  That is not the same as "causation".

    Northern Colorado Egghead since 2012.

    XL BGE and a KBQ.

  • Ozzie_Isaac
    Ozzie_Isaac Posts: 18,838
    I removed all the weather stripping from my doors and windows.  Now I can use my stove with impunity.
    A bison’s level of aggressiveness, both physical and passive, is legendary. - NPS
  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 32,561
    Legume said:
    And for anyone that's lived in a house 50 or so years old and one that's new - the older homes all have airflow whether you want it or not.  Newer homes are airtight by comparison.
    No problem with this, house is 1940, windows are 40 maybe 50 years older. It's windy
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
  • Gulfcoastguy
    Gulfcoastguy Posts: 6,248
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    Based on what? You had probabilities and statistics right? Name the odds of picking 96% failing models if only 50% fail. And where did the 50% fail statement come from?
  • Botch
    Botch Posts: 15,380
    I removed all the weather stripping from my doors and windows.  Now I can use my stove with impunity.
    ...but you will die from a spider bite.  :tongue:  
    _____________

    "I put spot remover on my dog and now he's gone" - Steven Wright


  • HeavyG
    HeavyG Posts: 10,288
    Botch said:
    I removed all the weather stripping from my doors and windows.  Now I can use my stove with impunity.
    ...but you will die from a spider bite.  :tongue:  
    Or scorpions or rattlesnakes.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” ― Philip K. Diçk




  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,625
    caliking said:
    @CTMike if you have any reason to believe that a relatively minor thing, like changing out your stove, will impact SWMBO's health, then obviously you don't need validation from a bunch of yahoos on a bbq forum.

    I know that wasn't the intent of the thread, but maybe some folks need to hear it.
    To clarify, when I said "relatively minor thing", I meant the cost and effort of switching out the stove. Something like that would be a no-brainer if  there was even a slight chance of making an impact on one's health.

    I realized that it can be read somewhat differently.

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • JohnInCarolina
    JohnInCarolina Posts: 30,694
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    Based on what? You had probabilities and statistics right? Name the odds of picking 96% failing models if only 50% fail. And where did the 50% fail statement come from?
    I am quite literally a professor of mathematics at one of the best institutions in the country.  

    You are assuming the 21 they tested were a random sample of what’s on the market.  There’s no evidence of that.  They didn’t test a random sample, because they were sure a good number out there wouldn’t have any issue meeting the new standard.  They only tested a set they had questions about.

    Let me give you an example.  Imagine you’re interested in the claims of some high end sports cars.  They all claim to be able to do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds.  So you get ten of them, and 9 are able to, but 1 cannot.

    Now would you use that result to claim that 90 percent of *all cars* can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds?  I should hope not.  

    "I've made a note never to piss you two off." - Stike
  • HeavyG
    HeavyG Posts: 10,288
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    Based on what? You had probabilities and statistics right? Name the odds of picking 96% failing models if only 50% fail. And where did the 50% fail statement come from?
    I am quite literally a professor of mathematics at one of the best institutions in the country...
    Yeah, well... but do you do your crossword puzzles IN INK???
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” ― Philip K. Diçk




  • JohnInCarolina
    JohnInCarolina Posts: 30,694
    HeavyG said:
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    Based on what? You had probabilities and statistics right? Name the odds of picking 96% failing models if only 50% fail. And where did the 50% fail statement come from?
    I am quite literally a professor of mathematics at one of the best institutions in the country...
    Yeah, well... but do you do your crossword puzzles IN INK???
    😂😂😂
    "I've made a note never to piss you two off." - Stike
  • RRP
    RRP Posts: 25,834
    Langner91 said:

    @RRP, even if it takes all your money, never say never.  If you have natural gas in the place, you can have a gas stove.  You might need to install it in your bedroom or bathroom, but you can have a gas stove.

    Some houses are just easier to install them where they are wanted.
    I hear you, pal...but without ripping out all of our custom cabinets much less re-work all the plumbing and electrical network...and THEN of course getting that gas line up here so as to TOTALLY RE-DESIGN our kitchen then yes...anything can be redone!!!  BUT at my advancing age of 79 do I REALLY give a sh*t?

    Get my point?
    Re-gasketing America one yard at a time.
  • Gulfcoastguy
    Gulfcoastguy Posts: 6,248
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    Based on what? You had probabilities and statistics right? Name the odds of picking 96% failing models if only 50% fail. And where did the 50% fail statement come from?
    I am quite literally a professor of mathematics at one of the best institutions in the country.  

    You are assuming the 21 they tested were a random sample of what’s on the market.  There’s no evidence of that.  They didn’t test a random sample, because they were sure a good number out there wouldn’t have any issue meeting the new standard.  They only tested a set they had questions about.

    Let me give you an example.  Imagine you’re interested in the claims of some high end sports cars.  They all claim to be able to do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds.  So you get ten of them, and 9 are able to, but 1 cannot.

    Now would you use that result to claim that 90 percent of *all cars* can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds?  I should hope not.  

    And my last sentence? Not to mention the evidence for your reply to the first?
  • Legume
    Legume Posts: 14,555
    If you like the gas stove you have, you can keep the gas stove you have.

    Unlike a say, um, virus, if there is an issue, it will be limited to those that live and spend significant time in your home.  This is what is sometimes referred to as a risk - it's not proven, lots of variables, blah blah blah.  Nobody is coming for your stove.
  • JohnInCarolina
    JohnInCarolina Posts: 30,694
    edited March 2023
    So 20 out of 21 models that the DoE tested failed but they said that only 50% would fail? One of these things is not like the other. 
    Because the 21 they tested aren't representative of the options that are out there.  I don't know how what criteria they used to select the 21, but it wasn't based on market availability.  
    Based on what? You had probabilities and statistics right? Name the odds of picking 96% failing models if only 50% fail. And where did the 50% fail statement come from?
    I am quite literally a professor of mathematics at one of the best institutions in the country.  

    You are assuming the 21 they tested were a random sample of what’s on the market.  There’s no evidence of that.  They didn’t test a random sample, because they were sure a good number out there wouldn’t have any issue meeting the new standard.  They only tested a set they had questions about.

    Let me give you an example.  Imagine you’re interested in the claims of some high end sports cars.  They all claim to be able to do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds.  So you get ten of them, and 9 are able to, but 1 cannot.

    Now would you use that result to claim that 90 percent of *all cars* can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds?  I should hope not.  

    And my last sentence? Not to mention the evidence for your reply to the first?
    It’s all in the article I linked.  You just have to read it, albeit carefully. 


    "I've made a note never to piss you two off." - Stike
  • nolaegghead
    nolaegghead Posts: 42,100
    I read it to the end.  Makes perfect sense and answers most of the the questions here except: wtf did Ron post?
    ______________________________________________
    I love lamp..
  • billt01
    billt01 Posts: 1,502
    I removed all the weather stripping from my doors and windows.  Now I can use my stove with impunity.
    #winning
    Have:
     XLBGE / Stumps Baby XL / Couple of Stokers (Gen 1 and Gen 3) / Blackstone 36 / Maxey 3x5 water pan hog cooker
    Had:
    LBGE / Lang 60D / Cookshack SM150 / Stumps Stretch / Stumps Baby

    Fat Willies BBQ
    Ola, Ga

  • lkapigian
    lkapigian Posts: 10,649
    I removed all the weather stripping from my doors and windows.  Now I can use my stove with impunity.
    IAQ has gotten far worse at the expense of "Weatherization", I have a leaky old house and I'll keep it that way 
    Visalia, Ca @lkapigian
  • Gulfcoastguy
    Gulfcoastguy Posts: 6,248
    The dog’s door takes care of my house being “over sealed”.
  • Ozzie_Isaac
    Ozzie_Isaac Posts: 18,838
    lkapigian said:
    I removed all the weather stripping from my doors and windows.  Now I can use my stove with impunity.
    IAQ has gotten far worse at the expense of "Weatherization", I have a leaky old house and I'll keep it that way 
    My uncle has an incredibly airtight house in Northern Wisconsin.  He has the most complex AC system I have ever seen.  He has to pull in a lot of fresh air to keep good IAQ.  He pulls it in, conditions it, then pumps it into the house.  He utilizes some of the return air in heat exchangers then exhausts the return air outside.  He has a huge room dedicated to all the equipment.
    A bison’s level of aggressiveness, both physical and passive, is legendary. - NPS