Fire down below

Powak

Bar said:

The KAB & KAC without the shower drain does cause my XL to burn a little different.

When cooking spatchcock chicken at 400 the fire is concentrated in one area toward the back.  Before I added these I would put the bird on and not open the lid until it was done.  Now I need to rotate the grill grate every 15 min to avoid overcooking/burning the one spot. 

When I go to shake the ash out the next day for the next cook I notice that the coals in one area are burned/ash but the rest of the coals are practically unused.  I have been refilling the same spot in the basket for the past month.

This is a very similar effect I was having with the can and basket in and no shower drain. I too noticed a significant drop in outside bottom surface temperature when using the can. I checked this with my Thermoworks IR gun. But the fire gets so focused down below when doing any cooking with dome closed that for most of my cooks except straight up dome open grillin, the can’s not providing much benefit. 

Powak

dbCooper said:

@Powak

This research seems to indicate there will be less bottom radiated heat when using the Kick Ash Can...

http://www.nakedwhiz.com/kabt/kabt.htm

Wow that was nicely done research. I think something else those guys need to measure is how long it takes the base to heat up and cool down using those same variants. I think if there is a difference in time there that may be where the issue is with cracking bases. I’ve been through more bases in a shorter duration with the shower drain out than in.

Bar

4TheGrillOfIt said:

@bar How are you starting your fire and in what location?  I have noticed on my large that the fire moves toward the back, but I haven’t noticed the same on the XL.  

With a MAPP torch in four spots.  2 4 8 10
The fire seems to burn straight down.

Botch

I'm gonna throw out a Thought Exercise here.  You can tell me where I'm wrong, or crumble into a whimpering pile of Defeat and admit I'm right (that's okay, I'm used to it    ).  
I light my Rutland square, half-buried into fresh lump.  When it burns out, the lump is lit and It Begins.  Oxygen is pulled in from the sides and below, combustion occurs, and heated CO2 and H2O (steam) are given off; because its hotter, it is also less dense and rises up to heat the food and exit the egg.  This creates a vacuum and cooler air is pulled in, again (from the sides and the bottom).  The combustion process sends heat, via radiation, up, sideways and down; it also sends heat, via convection, primarily upwards (hot air rises, as mentioned earlier).  I would think that, from the initial burn point, it would spread pretty much radially both sideways and downwards, possibly a bit more to the sides as there is convection heat going that way (plus the cooler air coming up from below directs that convection heat up, and somewhat to the sides).  
All that being said, that's not quite what happens.  I too see the fire burn primarily downwards.  One night my schmancy wifi thermometer woke me up, I got up and pulled the brisket and platesetter, and my fire had slow-burned from the top to the bottom, almost straight down (leaving a hole about the size of a coffee can straight down thru the lump; the lump to the sides was unburned.  Wish I'd had the presence of mind to snap a photo, I stirred it and the brisket was fine the next day).  
This year I've also been experimenting with true grilling, leaving the lid open and the bottom vent completely closed.  The fire seems to STILL burn straight down for me, WTFF?  
FWIW.    

4TheGrillOfIt

I noticed on a brisket cook the other day in my XL that I had an entire chunk of wood that didn’t burn.  It was about a half way between center and 1 the o’clock edge.  Never ever experienced this with my large.  However, just two days ago I used the XL for direct grilling with the bottom vent closed and had a nice hot and even fire in about 20 minutes.  

stv8r

that's what she said 

Bar

I may take the can out and put the shower drain back in but I really, really like the super quick cleanup with the can.  I can literally have my egg cleaned and lit in two minutes.

AprèsSki

Thanks for the new term, "shower drain", it fits. Question for the brain trust.

On my XL I use a KAB with the shower drain. After shaking out the lump I pull it out and use the ash tool to push the ashes down "the drain". I occasionally push ashes away from the vent but don't pull "the drain" and scoop out all of the ashes until after about 10 to 15 cooks. I get good clean burns and yes I intuitively know when it is time to clean out the ashes (but, usually a couple of cooks too late).

Q: How often do those of you who use a shower drain by it self pull up the drain and clean out the firebox? How do you know when it is due for a cleaning?

Bar

On an XL you could go 12 to 16 cooks easily.  With the basket/can I just cleaned it every time because it is just too easy.

danhoo

AprèsSki said:

Thanks for the new term, "shower drain", it fits. Question for the brain trust.

On my XL I use a KAB with the shower drain. After shaking out the lump I pull it out and use the ash tool to push the ashes down "the drain". I occasionally push ashes away from the vent but don't pull "the drain" and scoop out all of the ashes until after about 10 to 15 cooks. I get good clean burns and yes I intuitively know when it is time to clean out the ashes (but, usually a couple of cooks too late).

Q: How often do those of you who use a shower drain by it self pull up the drain and clean out the firebox? How do you know when it is due for a cleaning?

I use my Ash tool to pull Ash out the front almost every cook out of habit . Sometimes there is very little Ash. Just lift the drain and look.

GrateEggspectations

Thought this post was going to be about VD, and opened it out of morbid curiosity. 

Powak

GrateEggspectations said:

Thought this post was going to be about VD, and opened it out of morbid curiosity. 

HAHAHAHAHAH

Bar

I tried cooking with the KAB & KAC and no shower drain one last time (I’m hard headed and stubborn).  

I cooked a bacon wrapped stuffed pork tenderloin that they sell in the grocery stores around here.  I cook these about once a month and they turn out consistently good.  Always the same time and temp.  400 raised direct for ~ 30 min. Flip half way through. The tenderloin is perfectly cooked and the bacon is nice and crisp.  

The one last night came out as if I cooked it indirect with the platesetter in.  The tenderloin was done (although I did cook it about 10 min longer) but the bacon was not crisp at all and uneatable.  

This is what @Powak stated in his first post of this thread.  Just wanted to confirm that I experienced exactly the same thing.

PigBeanUs

4TheGrillOfIt said:

@bar How are you starting your fire and in owhat location?  I have noticed on my large that the fire moves toward the back, but I haven’t noticed the same on the XL.  

Doesn’t matter where you start it really. The fire chases the oxygen. 

When using the dampers to control temperature, you basically have an airtight system (depending on your gasket). 

That means that if you let air in from below, the fire will dive down. 

The fire moves toward the back because when the air comes in the lower vent, under a decent draft, it rises up the back. 

In an XL the distance to the back is far enough that the air will rise thru the grate before it gets there. 

In a small you don’t notice the “fire in the back” phenomenon either, because the lower are is so small

I imagine that those grate substitutes which allow greater air flow actually mean the air is available to the fire quickly, lower, virtually as soon as it enters the egg, and has less chance to move up into the charcoal.

interesting question

i once proposed a thing that was basically like a colander, turned upside down. It would allow less charcoal in the egg, but place the fire up higher. 

For grilling, like burgers etc, i shut the lower vent completely. The fire stays up top and fills the whole surface eventually. Lid stays open

you can get flare ups that way though. And flames. 

Foghorn

This whole thread has made me wonder if maybe some thought actually went into the design of the stock charcoal grate - and if it's a really good design... because I've never had any of these problems.  I'm just sayin'...

lkapigian

GrateEggspectations said:

Thought this post was going to be about VD, and opened it out of morbid curiosity. 

LoL

Bar

Foghorn said:

This whole thread has made me wonder if maybe some thought actually went into the design of the stock charcoal grate - and if it's a really good design... because I've never had any of these problems.  I'm just sayin'...

I do think this is the case.  

@jdMyers mentioned this in the 6th post of this thread (also his 666th post ).  He was right and so are you.  I was determined to make this work without the stock (heavy on the XL) charcoal grate because of the ease of use of the KAB & KAC combo.

The stock charcoal grate does make a difference in this case.

Powak

Bar said:

I tried cooking with the KAB & KAC and no shower drain one last time (I’m hard headed and stubborn).  

I cooked a bacon wrapped stuffed pork tenderloin that they sell in the grocery stores around here.  I cook these about once a month and they turn out consistently good.  Always the same time and temp.  400 raised direct for ~ 30 min. Flip half way through. The tenderloin is perfectly cooked and the bacon is nice and crisp.  

The one last night came out as if I cooked it indirect with the platesetter in.  The tenderloin was done (although I did cook it about 10 min longer) but the bacon was not crisp at all and uneatable.  

This is what @Powak stated in his first post of this thread.  Just wanted to confirm that I experienced exactly the same thing.

MAN! I tried the same thing last night just to see if I was hallucinating. I ran it at 450° this time with the cooking grate at the fire ring, cooked chicken breasts with a light greek seasoning. Chicken acted like paper towels on the grate just rubbing the black soot onto the meat as it cooked (“steamed”?), opened the dome and closed the bottom vent to save the cook in the end, but man thing we’re very uneven. The only place I had visible fire at first was the back and the rest had burned down leaving the top coals black. This is after I closed the bottom vent and started to save the cook but those couple pieces in the middle about sum up the cook initially. Things cooking like this makes me wonder how cooking at the felt would even work? Do you guys cooking at the felt  keep the dome open whole time?

Powak

Bar said:

Foghorn said:

This whole thread has made me wonder if maybe some thought actually went into the design of the stock charcoal grate - and if it's a really good design... because I've never had any of these problems.  I'm just sayin'...

I do think this is the case.  

@jdMyers mentioned this in the 6th post of this thread (also his 666th post ).  He was right and so are you.  I was determined to make this work without the stock (heavy on the XL) charcoal grate because of the ease of use of the KAB & KAC combo.

The stock charcoal grate does make a difference in this case.

How about the stock grate with the KAB and KAC? Does that return things to normal again? I really don’t have an issue with using the ash tool too so if it’s the KAC making it different as a well, out she goes.

jdMyers

So I can only speak from my own experiences and testing.  Both probably unorthodox.  worried that my hand cut granite slab under the egg might crack from heat.

I began just testing heat.  Heat on wall paver stones.  Heat near stones then simulate rain hitting the hot stones, granite etc.  Because I have a wood fired pizza oven that I run near 1000 degrees I was concerned about the granite under it.

So using an FLIR hand held, A point n shoot temp gun, A thermapen mk4, and even just food/grill probes into a digital thermometer, oh and my digi Q grill grate probes.  I began monitoring heat under neath.  How heat escaped under the egg vs the dome temp etc.  Around the stones on the firepit.

So for me.  Raising my pizza oven approx 3.5 inches above the granite produced enough air flow that at 1000 degrees at 30 min the granite was cool to the touch.  If it rained wouldn't quick crack the granite.  If I over sprayed my spray butter, wouldn't crack it.  At 2 inch, and 1000 degrees the granite could nearly cook at brisket temps.  Closer or near an inch.  Temp was too high guaranteed crack.  Especially if it rained during the cook.  The FLIR unit at the time just showed a cloud of heat going downward two inch and closer.  At 3.5 inch it was non existent.

So taking that to the egg.  This is not an advertisement for anyone.  Just how I solved my fears and problems.  Particularly since before these test I broke granite, paver stone, and stone around my firepit.  That was a pain.  I average 4 to 5 ft fires in the pit.  

I used a JJGeorge table nest that raised the unit off the granite apprx 2 inch, however is also powder coated which dissipates heat well.  There are rubber feet covers on that to help separate the heat.  It wasn't enough. 

The FLIR hand held still showed massive temps under the egg, the temp probes confirmed it at high egg temps, when using just a Kick ash basket and bowl.  Removing both and just using the grate the temps were lower.  FlIR air flow was uniform and even with just the grate.  Using both the basket, bowl and grate.  Ash cleanup is what it is.  However with all three, temps below the egg were cool to the touch on the granite. Definitely twice as cool on the jjgeorge than with the stock green egg feet.

I have done very high cooks, and survived without breaks.  Worked for me.  Learned a lot.  I would think any table nest will work, powder coating helps.

I applied this info when I built on the wall live fireplaces.  powder coated a steel plate.  Bent the sides inward to create a gap between the steel and the wall.  Worked perfectly.  Useless I know but Just whats helped me.  I have more time than money and can not keep replacing stuff because im addicted to fire.  Hope this helps someone as I quite breaking stones, my cooks are even, and I solved my own problems over time.

Photos.

 

danhoo

Not sure how the last post was on topic,

But I think a few of us would like to know if

Kick Ash Basket 
+
Drain
+
Kick Ash Can  burns normal or not. 

Bar

Powak said:

Bar said:

Foghorn said:

This whole thread has made me wonder if maybe some thought actually went into the design of the stock charcoal grate - and if it's a really good design... because I've never had any of these problems.  I'm just sayin'...

I do think this is the case.  

@jdMyers mentioned this in the 6th post of this thread (also his 666th post ).  He was right and so are you.  I was determined to make this work without the stock (heavy on the XL) charcoal grate because of the ease of use of the KAB & KAC combo.

The stock charcoal grate does make a difference in this case.

How about the stock grate with the KAB and KAC? Does that return things to normal again? I really don’t have an issue with using the ash tool too so if it’s the KAC making it different as a well, out she goes.

I’ll have to get back to you on this.  

I pulled the KAC and put the stock grate back in with the KAB and cooked a Cajun stuffed chicken last night (raised direct at 400) and it came out good, egg cooked like it should.  

Next cook I’ll put the can back in but it may be a few days.  The wife likes diversity for dinner and this was my third cook this week on the Egg.  I see going out to eat the next couple of nights in my future.

EzraBrooks

danhoo said:

Not sure how the last post was on topic,

But I think a few of us would like to know if

Kick Ash Basket 
+
Drain
+
Kick Ash Can  burns normal or not. 

As I said before, I took out the drain and used both the KAB and the KAC and noticed no difference.  That said, I may not be as detail-oriented (read OCD) as some of you.  But this thread has sparked my curiosity.  So when I cook pork chops this evening I will put the drain back in and see if I notice any difference since I have been running without it for at least the last 6 months.

Powak

EzraBrooks said:

danhoo said:

Not sure how the last post was on topic,

But I think a few of us would like to know if

Kick Ash Basket 
+
Drain
+
Kick Ash Can  burns normal or not. 

As I said before, I took out the drain and used both the KAB and the KAC and noticed no difference.  That said, I may not be as detail-oriented (read OCD) as some of you.  But this thread has sparked my curiosity.  So when I cook pork chops this evening I will put the drain back in and see if I notice any difference since I have been running without it for at least the last 6 months.

How do you light yours and do you cook with dome
up a lot? I’ve only found this to really impact direct -raised grate cooking with dome closed.

Bar

EzraBrooks said:

danhoo said:

Not sure how the last post was on topic,

But I think a few of us would like to know if

Kick Ash Basket 
+
Drain
+
Kick Ash Can  burns normal or not. 

As I said before, I took out the drain and used both the KAB and the KAC and noticed no difference.  That said, I may not be as detail-oriented (read OCD) as some of you.  But this thread has sparked my curiosity.  So when I cook pork chops this evening I will put the drain back in and see if I notice any difference since I have been running without it for at least the last 6 months.

I think the size of the Egg makes a difference too.  I have this setup on a medium and can’t tell that big of a difference.  On my XL I can tell a big difference.  The difference in size and weight of the shower drain is huge between those two.

EzraBrooks

Powak said:

EzraBrooks said:

danhoo said:

Not sure how the last post was on topic,

But I think a few of us would like to know if

Kick Ash Basket 
+
Drain
+
Kick Ash Can  burns normal or not. 

As I said before, I took out the drain and used both the KAB and the KAC and noticed no difference.  That said, I may not be as detail-oriented (read OCD) as some of you.  But this thread has sparked my curiosity.  So when I cook pork chops this evening I will put the drain back in and see if I notice any difference since I have been running without it for at least the last 6 months.

How do you light yours and do you cook with dome
up a lot? I’ve only found this to really impact direct -raised grate cooking with dome closed.

Large egg, lit with EVOO and paper towel in the center, then give it a good stir after the fire is going.  Do not cook with lid open other than to turn the protein.

EzraBrooks

Cooked the chops with the drain in and noticed no difference.

jtcBoynton

Foghorn said:

This whole thread has made me wonder if maybe some thought actually went into the design of the stock charcoal grate - and if it's a really good design... because I've never had any of these problems.  I'm just sayin'...

maybe.  But consider that the current sewer drain grate is fairly new.  It has twice as many holes (of the same size) as the original grate (for large eggs).  So airflow changed quite a bit.  I don't know if the change was for airflow considerations or maybe production cost considerations.

Powak

jtcBoynton said:

Foghorn said:

This whole thread has made me wonder if maybe some thought actually went into the design of the stock charcoal grate - and if it's a really good design... because I've never had any of these problems.  I'm just sayin'...

maybe.  But consider that the current sewer drain grate is fairly new.  It has twice as many holes (of the same size) as the original grate (for large eggs).  So airflow changed quite a bit.  I don't know if the change was for airflow considerations or maybe production cost considerations.

Whoah Now that would be a good test. First grate I had with my egg didn’t have the TOP message on it. Was that the original style?

Powak

After about a month of the fire burning down issue and trying a slew of things to fix it including just using my new BS all the time, I think it’s boiled down to the coal. I’ve only had these issues with RO, particularly the 30# bags from Malwart. This weekend I’m gonna grab some RW and see if that fixes it.