Cold weather

fishlessman

frazzdaddy said:

fishlessman said:

the wind mills in north dakota automatically shut down at minus 20, its planned for, texas doesnt plan for it

https://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/in-extreme-cold-north-dakota-windmills-stand-still/article_510b439c-0287-5931-99db-60582d578279.html

Yupp

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2021/02/16/why-wind-turbines-in-cold-climates-dont-freeze-de-icing-and-carbon-fiber/?sh=74631bfe1f59

heres the backup plan, fossile fuels to fly the copter and fossile fuels to heat the water pistol   might actually be a better plan in texas than the frigid dakotas

JohnInCarolina

The thing is these kinds of polar vortices that snap all the way down into Texas stand a good chance of becoming more frequent, not less.

Even if you don’t accept that, it would still make sense for Texas to invest in energy infrastructure or partner with neighboring states to mitigate risk.  

fishlessman

20 degrees out and a guy shows up at the harley place across the street with his bike for an inspection sticker....crazy crazy crazy....the roads are covered with sand and salt, not what you want to drive a road bike on

Botch

We haven't been getting the cold temps a lot of you guys are, but its been Avalanche City. The ski lodges up Little Cottonwood Canyon have been on lockdown since Monday night (skiers/employees can't leave the building, and are warned to stay away from the windows). Ski area workers can't keep up and avalanches are happening on the groomed slopes. A snowplow was carried off the road (driver is okay). Its nuts.  

https://kutv.com/news/local/avalanche-danger-extremely-high-plow-truck-hit-by-slide

Legume

JohnInCarolina said:

The thing is these kinds of polar vortices that snap all the way down into Texas stand a good chance of becoming more frequent, not less.

Even if you don’t accept that, it would still make sense for Texas to invest in energy infrastructure or partner with neighboring states to mitigate risk.  

No way man!  Badge of honor to resist big government!

https://twitter.com/houstonchron/status/1362123178416431111?s=21

Legume

Maybe Elon will fix it now that he lives there.  

Oh, wait, he’s a solar and battery guy.

JohnInCarolina

Legume said:

JohnInCarolina said:

The thing is these kinds of polar vortices that snap all the way down into Texas stand a good chance of becoming more frequent, not less.

Even if you don’t accept that, it would still make sense for Texas to invest in energy infrastructure or partner with neighboring states to mitigate risk.  

No way man!  Badge of honor to resist big government!

https://twitter.com/houstonchron/status/1362123178416431111?s=21

Perry is the sort of guy you'd expect to find as Energy Secretary in a kakistocracy.

Gulfcoastguy

JohnInCarolina said:

The thing is these kinds of polar vortices that snap all the way down into Texas stand a good chance of becoming more frequent, not less.

Even if you don’t accept that, it would still make sense for Texas to invest in energy infrastructure or partner with neighboring states to mitigate risk.  

They definitely need to invest in infrastructure. For instance equipment that controls the flow of natural gas into power turbines froze making it unsafe to operate the turbines. I guess something similar happened to the nuke plant. If I lived in the area I would insist on having non electric dependent natural gas fireplaces or at least a pellet stove. I have even heard of stoves that burn shelled corn. The pellet stoves seem to be mostly reliant on electricity though. Wood for wood burning stoves might be scarce in west Texas but I could be wrong. Solar panels for at least some electricity? 

YukonRon

frazzdaddy said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

My niece and her family are in Midland. They don't have natural gas. But they do have a fireplace.....with no firewood. I asked her about charcoal and she said she hadn't thought about that but would check in the morning. Meanwhile the three of them and the three dogs: Chihuahua, Sheltie, and Lab are all piled in one bed. 
I had heard that their windmills were iced over and for some reason they had to shut down a nuke plant. If so other states in the wind belt should start having problems soon.

Funny how the wind farms in North Dakota haven't had any issues.  My recollection is that it gets pretty cold up there.  Could it be that some states have energy infrastructure that is prepared for cold weather, while others... do not?  Hmmmm....

Quite possible though an ice storm in Galvaston on the Gulf of Mexico is pretty rare. 

I guess I don't follow your argument.  You indicated that other states in the wind belt should start having problems soon, and I simply pointed out that this isn't necessarily true as many are plenty well equipped for cold weather.  

From the article I posted above.

The answer, in short, is that turbines in colder places are typically equipped with de-icing and other tools, such as built-in heating. In Texas, where the weather is almost never this cold, they usually are not. 

A couple of things. We also make coatings specific to the need of wind turbines to maintain operational capability in temperatures that are well below freezing, and operate continuously without fail in Antartica. That said, our coatings are not the only reason for their operation capabilities in sub freezing weather, but increase significantly the cost of manufacture.

@lousubcap the only way I can imagine a nuclear power station shutting down would be a waterline intake pipe or valve freezing causing the system to trigger a shutdown, but I am just spitballing from about a mile from the wall. You are the expert, by far, sir.

nolaegghead

Ron, that's what happened.  Problems with the cooling water supply, from what I read. And that makes sense.  Same with other fossil fueled plants.  When I lived in San Antonio, I would fish from the reservoir that cooled an electric plant....it was relatively shallow and small. 

YukonRon

Some friends of ours sent us this picture of their local H.E.B., in North West Houston. This is the meat aisle.I have been to H.E.B. With my in-laws while visiting. This blows my mind.

YukonRon

nolaegghead said:

Ron, that's what happened.  Problems with the cooling water supply, from what I read. And that makes sense.  Same with other fossil fueled plants.  When I lived in San Antonio, I would fish from the reservoir that cooled an electric plant....it was relatively shallow and small. 

I do know there is a certain amount of moisture with Natural Gas that could freeze. But, it would have to be stagnant in a dynamic supply system for a bit to create freezing, which I suppose if shut down or rolled back, that scenario could/would exist. Makes sense.

Gulfcoastguy

Waldo is taking no chances!

HeavyG

https://twitter.com/danec/status/1295875472790872064

Gotta love when an old tweet comes back to bite you. I guess it would be just a little bit mean for Californians to be snickering right now but...

HeavyG

fishlessman said:

frazzdaddy said:

fishlessman said:

the wind mills in north dakota automatically shut down at minus 20, its planned for, texas doesnt plan for it

https://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/in-extreme-cold-north-dakota-windmills-stand-still/article_510b439c-0287-5931-99db-60582d578279.html

Yupp

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2021/02/16/why-wind-turbines-in-cold-climates-dont-freeze-de-icing-and-carbon-fiber/?sh=74631bfe1f59

heres the backup plan, fossile fuels to fly the copter and fossile fuels to heat the water pistol   might actually be a better plan in texas than the frigid dakotas

Saw that on Twitter a couple days ago. One of the commenters linked to a pdf from 5 years ago from which that pix was taken. It was a study on the airborne de-icing of wind turbines done by the Swedes. They found that using a helicopter to spray the blades with warm water to get the turbine back in action paid for itself in less than 48 hours. Was an interesting read.

Had a pix of damage done by ice flung from a turbine which is one of the reasons they were looking at a bunch of de-icing options:

I'd never given any thought to chunks of ice damaging things as the only turbines I've seen in the US are pretty remote but clearly that can be an issue in developed property close to those monsters.

lousubcap

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

PigBeanUs

fishlessman said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

My niece and her family are in Midland. They don't have natural gas. But they do have a fireplace.....with no firewood. I asked her about charcoal and she said she hadn't thought about that but would check in the morning. Meanwhile the three of them and the three dogs: Chihuahua, Sheltie, and Lab are all piled in one bed. 
I had heard that their windmills were iced over and for some reason they had to shut down a nuke plant. If so other states in the wind belt should start having problems soon.

hard to get a good draft going with charcoal in an open fireplace.  ive known people making it thru a new england winter finding free pallets in the industrial neighbor hoods. theres several places near me where they are just stacked up  for the taking, mostly for reuse, its where i get my shipping pallets when i get low

Burned nothing but pallets through the oil crisis

i had to carry them to the back yard, dad cut them up with a skill-saw

could carry six of the oak ones at one time. 

Cleaning out the fireplace (woodstove) was ridiculous. All nails, some ash

Botch

PigBeanUs said:
could carry six of the oak ones at one time. 

Cleaning out the fireplace (woodstove) was ridiculous. All nails, some ash

If you carefully word it, just right, you could sell those "oak-hardened, iron nails" on eBay for $3,750 apiece.  

YukonRon

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

Absolutely agree.

Legume

https://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/mmg_disp.jsp?med_id=68353&from&fbclid=IwAR1q5y1NW-_-jaFDioxGOaA7iTkqHAThThNWE21x5yDYwbK4x3yQXRuCX_s#:~:text=Three%20new%20wind%20turbines%20located,a%20total%20of%20990%20kw

frazzdaddy

Gulfcoastguy said:

Waldo is taking no chances!

lol, Got that same look x2 at 5am this morning when I tried to get them to go out. NOPE, not gonna do it. 

fishlessman

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

YukonRon

fishlessman said:

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

There are many nuclear power plants far more north than in Texas that have run safely and securely, 24/7/365. I think something else must have shut it down besides frozen water and fittings.

JohnInCarolina

fishlessman said:

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

Not sure if you have heard, but there is this brand new technology called internet search engines.  It is amazing what you can learn with a little searching and reading if you want to take the time.  

fishlessman

JohnInCarolina said:

fishlessman said:

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

Not sure if you have heard, but there is this brand new technology called internet search engines.  It is amazing what you can learn with a little searching and reading if you want to take the time.  

i went there once, we didnt land on the moon and the earth is flat. the regular news keeps saying water but i really doubt it unless something catastrophic happened to the inlet system.

nolaegghead

fishlessman said:

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

from https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-power-outages-after-deep-freeze-prompt-governor-to-urge-probe-11613513090

Monday, one of the two units of the South Texas Project, a nuclear-power plant near the Gulf of Mexico, shut down, according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials and the plant's operator. The unit's water supply froze, causing two pumps to fail.

Fish, they don't bury that stuff as much in the south so they can more easily inspect/fix it and because freezing is not usually an issue. 

There are all kinds of smaller control pipes that are used for sampling, monitoring, sensors, etc that are external to the pipe that fall in the same category.

fishlessman

nolaegghead said:

fishlessman said:

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

from https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-power-outages-after-deep-freeze-prompt-governor-to-urge-probe-11613513090

Monday, one of the two units of the South Texas Project, a nuclear-power plant near the Gulf of Mexico, shut down, according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials and the plant's operator. The unit's water supply froze, causing two pumps to fail.

Fish, they don't bury that stuff as much in the south so they can more easily inspect/fix it and because freezing is not usually an issue. 

There are all kinds of smaller control pipes that are used for sampling, monitoring, sensors, etc that are external to the pipe that fall in the same category.

maybe a small monitoring line on the pump failed or but no way a main inlet line nor two of those pumps at the same time. whats the water temp down there right now, maybe 70 degrees at the inlet.   inlet lines are pretty important on a nuke plant, making them accessible above ground to terrorism would not make me feel safe.

nolaegghead

fishlessman said:

nolaegghead said:

fishlessman said:

lousubcap said:

@YukonRon - definitely had to be support infrastructure as noted by @nolaegghead.  The one that you likely can't work around is the cooling water but so soon into the freeze is disturbing.  

really would like to know what really shut it down. cooling water intakes for a nuke plant are gigantic and the water source temps dont fluctuate much at all during a freak cold snap. i couldnt imagine the intake even being above ground for a nuke plant

from https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-power-outages-after-deep-freeze-prompt-governor-to-urge-probe-11613513090

Monday, one of the two units of the South Texas Project, a nuclear-power plant near the Gulf of Mexico, shut down, according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials and the plant's operator. The unit's water supply froze, causing two pumps to fail.

Fish, they don't bury that stuff as much in the south so they can more easily inspect/fix it and because freezing is not usually an issue. 

There are all kinds of smaller control pipes that are used for sampling, monitoring, sensors, etc that are external to the pipe that fall in the same category.

maybe a small monitoring line on the pump failed or but no way a main inlet line nor two of those pumps at the same time. whats the water temp down there right now, maybe 70 degrees at the inlet.   inlet lines are pretty important on a nuke plant, making them accessible above ground to terrorism would not make me feel safe.

Because, why?  Terrorists can't buy scuba gear?  Security usually adapts to engineering, I would think the other way around compromises function.

Botch

fishlessman said:
Inlet lines are pretty important on a nuke plant, making them accessible above ground to terrorism would not make me feel safe.

I am waiting to see if that was a requirement of the NRC, which the Texas commission diverted by forming their own power grid.  
I understand that the southern states east of Texas are getting power diverted to them (being part of the eastern US power grid), but I also haven't heard of any frozen water lines, or power shutdowns, in Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi et al; isn't the cold air from TX headed that way?  Why is Texas having their infrastructure destroyed by the cold, and not the other "southern, warmer" spots?   

nolaegghead

Botch said:

fishlessman said:
Inlet lines are pretty important on a nuke plant, making them accessible above ground to terrorism would not make me feel safe.

I am waiting to see if that was a requirement of the NRC, which the Texas commission diverted by forming their own power grid.  
I understand that the southern states east of Texas are getting power diverted to them (being part of the eastern US power grid), but I also haven't heard of any frozen water lines, or power shutdowns, in Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi et al; isn't the cold air from TX headed that way?  Why is Texas having their infrastructure destroyed by the cold, and not the other "southern, warmer" spots?   

I can speak for New Orleans.  We got 2 days of below freezing weather and no snow/sleet.  Some ice, but nothing like Texas.  East of us in Red Stick, they have power problems and I've been getting notifications from Entergy to use less power or I'll be part of a rolling blackout.  That said, we're on the eastern grid (as is some of east Texas, and power is diverted where's it's needed vs an island.