New grilling area layout input needed

JClark

So, after reading a number of posts and forums and joining discussions on some, I thought I would start my own discussion topic to keep things in one place -

We currently have a 56" Challenger cart for our XL BGE - with a flip up side for additional surface area.  We have it on our center deck, along with a propane fire table and chairs.  We have the included storage filled, with charcoal and wood chunks being stored elsewhere in the garage and some of the probes and electronics for smoking in the house.  The center deck is flanked by a 3-season room to one side, and an upper deck with a hot tub and privacy wall on the other.  There are also stairs that step down to a brick patio area with a wood burning fire pit.  The back of the house along where the center deck is is 2-story glass (so we'd like to keep rooflines for a structure to either side).  The back of the house where the hot tub is is a patio door into the master bedroom.

We want to add a new outdoor space to accommodate dedicated dining area and a covered grilling area. 

1. We envision 2 XL BGE in the gilling area (don't really need XL for a second, but don't want to invest in second set of accessories we might use on a different size egg)
2. We have 2 outdoor kegerators (we didn't plan for 2, but that's what we managed to arrange for, so we expect to use one as a fridge)
3. We expect the new deck area to match the existing deck surface, which is wood, and we have a wooded lot, so we envision everything being on casters to enable movement for maintenance as needed.
4. We don't want the BGEs to be adjacent to wall structure.  We don't want the BGEs to be in wood cabinets.
5. We will plan for a ceiling fan in the covered area and various electrical outlets.
6. Not planning for a sink.
7. We have an ice machine in the house kitchen - so ice buckets as needed to accommodate mixed drinks.

PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK AND SUGGESTIONS - layout, base cabinets, things I am not considering, etc.  THANKS


This first drawing is the existing.





Conceptual idea #1 -

1. Green area represents the roof covered area.
2. Dotted line around dining table is the suggested 10'x12'6" footprint for a table for 6.
3. Eating bar is an 18" trash pull out, 24" 3-drawer base and 36" 2-door cabinet.  Envision 3-drawer being serving items, outdoor plates, etc. and the 36" for charcoal and wood.
4. Grilling counter area is XL BGE, 24" wide 3-drawer, 24" wide 3-drawer and XL BGE.
5. Like that the entire eating bar is covered - in case of unexpected or early wet weather and we want to finish eating outside.
6. The eating bar would double as a serving area.
7. Keg is a bit away from the lounge area in the event we are just chilling around the fire table (probably not a big deal).
8. Appliances (keg, and fridge) are a bit more exposed to the elements (covered, but open to the sides/back)
9. On paper - like the "angular" feel of the layout - mimics more of the design of the existing deck.

Conceptual idea #2 -

1. Green area represents the roof covered area.
2. Grilling counter area is XL BGE, 24" wide 3-drawer, 24" wide 3-drawer and XL BGE.
3. Eating bar is an 18" trash pull out, 24" 3-drawer base and 36" 2-door cabinet.  Envision 3-drawer being overflow flow for grilling items, and the 36" for charcoal and wood.
4. Left side of "V" is the grilling counter area with XL BGE, 24" wide 3-drawer, 24" wide 3-drawer and XL BGE.
5. Right side of "V" is the serving area with 2 24" wide 3-drawer cabinets (outdoor serving ware, glasses, etc.)
6. Goal would be select a cabinet solution that allows for a continuous counter of the "V" (as such, this layout is a bit more challenging in regards to cabinet options)
7. Like the additional serving area - being separate from eating bar.
8. Like that the grilling area feels more incorporated with the space - more interactive between chef and others.
9. On paper, feels more connected and interactive with the rest of the outdoor space.

JClark

After some more discussions with friends over the weekend, we came up with a 3rd option -  As drawn, The "U" is made up of -

18" pull out trash
24" 3-drawer
24" 3-drawer
corner
30" 3-drawer
corner
24" 3-drawer
36" base - potential for griddle
24" 3-drawer

Photo Egg

I would be happy with 1,2 or 3.

phil28

3. Looks more integrated w the continuous cabinets

pgprescott

I prefer layout 1. Two things about the other two I don’t care for personally. First is the egg placement adjacent to the counter/bar seating in 3. Secondly, I don’t think I would like the cabinets placed adjacent to the hot tub either. Although I am gathering you have a privacy fence around the tub in red? That said, all three would surely be impressive and enjoyable. I’m nit picking. 

JClark

@Photo Egg  - agreed, any of the three would make for good options.  But if I get to define an ideal out of the gate....  The reality is that deck and cabinets may be done at different times - but I don't want to get to picking out cabinets and find out we made the deck 12" too short...

#1 is more versatile on base cabinet products - however, there are limited number of cabinets that will accommodate an XL BGE that is not a corner unit.
#2 is more limiting with the 45 degree wedge base cabinet (e.g. Challenger does not make an option for that and isn't doing custom work)
#3 is shown with Challenger - leveraging their corner ceramic grill base cabinet.

#1 and #2 allow us an option to use a different counter material the eating bar to accommodate the overhang (many manufactures don't offer a curved end option on their included countertops).

So - here are some visuals of the existing area -

The first is standing at the top of the existing stairs down to the patio looking down along the existing bench.  The yellow and blue structure you see beyond the wall is the neighbor's house.

The second is standing out in the yard looking towards the back of the house.

The proposed new deck area would step down 2 steps from the current middle deck and the roof for the covered area would be above the wall around the hot tub.

jtcBoynton

Some random thoughts to consider.

where will you store charcoal and wood?  What path will you take to bringing it to the eggs.

what is the path to take out ash and greasy things for cleaning?

Option three puts some guests sitting at the bar close to a hot and smoky egg. 

The keg and frig in options two and three seem more central for guests to access without interfering with the cooking area. 

The bar can be used as a buffet serving area.  Option one location is best for this, option two is ok, and option three not so good.

option three gives you more prep space to both sides of the eggs.

How does the wind normally blow?  Options one and three may provide better pathways for smoke dispersal. 

Sweet100s

>> option three gives you more prep space to both sides of the eggs.

Agreed!    

To me that's the most critical thing for a positive Egg experience. 
If you have space available on both sides, you would use both sides on every cook.

That would make #3 best in terms of what I consider important. 

However, if you can create space on either side of the egg, there might be strong competing priorities and benefits for a different big picture orientation...

JClark

jtcBoynton said:

Some random thoughts to consider.

where will you store charcoal and wood?  What path will you take to bringing it to the eggs.

what is the path to take out ash and greasy things for cleaning?

Option three puts some guests sitting at the bar close to a hot and smoky egg. 

The keg and frig in options two and three seem more central for guests to access without interfering with the cooking area. 

The bar can be used as a buffet serving area.  Option one location is best for this, option two is ok, and option three not so good.

option three gives you more prep space to both sides of the eggs.

How does the wind normally blow?  Options one and three may provide better pathways for smoke dispersal. 

Charcoal and wood -
Option 1 and 2 would have a 36" wide 2-door full height base cabinet for wood and charcoal.  Option 3 would use the corner unit under the eggs (although I'm waiting to hear back from Challenger to confirm the opening width of the access door).

Ash/Grease -
Ash typically gets bagged before a cook and put in the trash or in the wood burning fire pit on the adjacent patio.  We are including a pull out trash in all options that would be quick access for cold ash if needed.  If we know we are burning the wood fire pit soon, it's no uncommon for us to scrape the platesetter into that pit.

Serving bar -
Option 1 is limited to the bar.  Works well if folks aren't eating there too.  Other-wise, traffic needs to circle behind the bar for the "cook" side of the bar to fill plates, etc.  Option 2 can use a dedicated serving area by the keg and fridge.  Option 3 can use the grill side of the bar, as well as the extended counter area by the keg/frig, depending on how much setup space is needed.

Prep space -
Agree with prep space on either side of the egg.  Right now, we have one full time side and a lift up shelf on the 56 Challenger torch cart.  Works - but never seems enough...  lol

Wind -
The back of the house faces south and what wind we get will be E/W since the back of the yard is protected by mature trees.  We are most exposed to the West, as that side of the area is an open neighbor's back yard.

Bar/Seating/Egg in your Face
Yeah - in option 3 agree with that last bar seat being in a less than ideal proximately to an egg.  I suspect if we have 4 people at the bar, they'll be shifted down and around the counter end more than by the egg.  We also plan to have the option of two eggs - so we can plan for which one we use and at what temp/purpose based on the humans on the deck factor....

Also, it's a goal to keep the eggs close enough where if we using probes, etc., I can run them into both eggs from one fire board.

It's important that we keep the cook in an interactive layout with other things going on in the space - for which we like 2 and 3 the best.  And for use of the kegerator when just chilling with drinks, we like 2 and 3.  And on paper, the new deck footprint of 3 feels like it fits the overall backyard space better - versus putting a rectangle extension off of the existing space (but that could just be a paper founded perspective).

Keep the ideas/questions coming!  Love getting other perspectives.

JClark

Sweet100s said:

>> option three gives you more prep space to both sides of the eggs.

Agreed!    

To me that's the most critical thing for a positive Egg experience. 
If you have space available on both sides, you would use both sides on every cook.

That would make #3 best in terms of what I consider important. 

However, if you can create space on either side of the egg, there might be strong competing priorities and benefits for a different big picture orientation...

For option 1 and 2, we can configure the "grill" cabinet run in any sequence/layout cabinets support.  Based on use of the 56" torch cart we have now, we thought one larger area in-between the two eggs would work better than 2 smaller areas on either side (and we can maximize drawer width in base cabinets as well).

One item we've found is that most cabinet manufacturers don't support an XL BGE in a base cabinet - either at all, or with the same depth cabinet of the rest of the product line.  Challenger's XL BGE cabinet is 2" deeper than the rest of their cabinets.  NewAge doesn't support that size at all.  Sunstone does (but not sure we wanted SS finish).  

Option 1 could be accommodated with custom cart options - but the 45 degree in option 2 limits base cabinet options and option 3 is dependent on corners for the ceramic grills.

So layout is one aspect - and then products that accommodate it.  We are trying to balance both so that we can get the deck dimensions confirmed.

Keep the comments and considerations coming!

JClark

So - the Challenger corner ceramic grill cabinets have a 13.5" door opening.  Not real convenient for charcoal bags.  So - a slight update to option 3 to consider alternate storage.

The "U" consists of -
18" trash
24" 3-drawer
24" left hinge (for charcoal)
corner
30" 3-drawer
corner
24" 3-drawer
36" grill base (potential for griddle)
36" 3-drawer

The working space between cabinets in the "U" is 48" and 40" from countertop to deck railing where the bar stools are.

JClark

So, we staked off the area this week and walked through how each of these might "feel".  And the one thing that became very obvious is that we don't want bar seating or primary grilling area to face the neighbors.  Out house sits back further than the adjacent houses, so options 2 and 3 both have the bar and/or grilling run facing the neighbor's house or yard/deck.

Using the same deck footprint, we are now considering the following options.

We think we like the traffic flow of Option A better - easier access to anything in the grilling area and cabinets, and perhaps more convenient if using the kitchen side of the bar as a serving area.  In both cases, the kegerator and fridge are out on their own, but since we plan to move them to the garage in the winter (we're in Michigan and won't be using them outside), we figure that isn't a big deal).  We also like in option A that people at the bar are interactive with everything else in the space - they face the other eating/gathering areas.

We could extent the deck length of the "dog leg" by a foot (towards the upper right corner of each of the snapshots below - but not sure if that gains us anything other than a more expensive deck.

Looking forward to any feedback -

Option A


Option B 

jdMyers

What did you end up doing

JClark

2021 Updates...

Our 2020 plans had to be postponed because another major project ended up not going as we planned last season (didn't get finished last season, and took more budget to rescue how a contractor left it).

That said, we're refining our plans and wanted to resurrect this thread.  The deck extension is the same footprint, although we are debating between a step down versus extending the existing deck at the same surface/height.  But here is the cabinet layout we are now planning for -

Starting at the top of the "U"

• freestanding kegerator
• 24" trash pull out
• 24" sink basin (grey waste water use only, cold water only)
• 30" 3-drawer
• 48" blind corner
• 30" ceramic grill base
• 30" ceramic grill base
• 48" blind corner (with second access door by seating)
• under cabinet fridge
• 24" 3-drawer

Each of the ceramic grill bases have a door with pull out bottom shelf - thinking for storing misc grates for the BGE (planning for a 2nd XL to have 2).

The blind corners are reserved for bags/containers of charcoal and smoking wood chunks.

Top drawer above the trash for outdoor dedicated cutting board - larger work surface cutting mat under the sink (along with extra foil pans, aluminum foil rolls, etc.)

2 additional 3-drawer base cabinets for probes, tools, spices, grilling utensils, etc.  Might dedicate one for wipes and paper towels for clean up.

Serving dishes and glassware still come into the house for cleaning and storage, but we'll look for a bus tub for make that process a bit easier.

We also plan for a ceiling fan, as well as dimmable lighting that will follow the cabinet footprint.

We need to keep the grills along the 10', 13' or 8' outer edges of the deck - to avoid being near combustible surfaces.  We need to keep the sink along the 13' side so that we have easy access to a dry well for the grey water and access under the deck for winterizing.

We like that there are lots of area for the grill master to work and folks can sit and chat, grab a brew, wash up, prep at the sink, and get to the trash - without being in the way, or trying to work around/near hot grills.  It also keeps both of the girls in easy reach of a Fireboard for monitoring two cooks.

And the grill master is protected when grilling in the rain/snow - and guests have a place to sit and eat when unexpected rain occurs.

FEEDBACK appreciated!  

jdMyers

How much actual counter top and whats the face gonna be?  If its stone or facade rock will any be visible to see

JClark

jdMyers said:

How much actual counter top and whats the face gonna be?  If its stone or facade rock will any be visible to see

Planning for freestanding outdoor cabinets - currently favoring Challenger Designs.  Expect 3 countertop sections, most likely granite.  One will be along the darker grey base cabinets along the 13' deck edge (approx 10 linear feet).  A smaller piece on the lower ceramic grill base (they are only about 12" tall) at the center of the U that we plan to have 2 BGE sit on.  And lastly, a 3rd section of countertop along the eating bar to include a curved end (approx. 8' linear feet plus the curved end).

jdMyers

Electric, outlets, refridgerator outlet, abilty to drain and blow air thru the water lines for winter access, plumbing and draining, gas lines or propaine lines, shut off valves, speakers and or speaker lines, radio ans or power for it. Fire extinguisher location are smallnthings thatb come  to mind.  Granite countertop I would consider the leather side not the glossy.  You will have to seal it nore ofteb but the sun wont wear down the finish.  Dont get black the heat storage will melt your arms everytime in the sun.  Consider how much  visible cabinets you want to show and the support.  For example if you have a drawer under the egg.  And your going to span granite above the drawer for the egg to sit on so it matches, then youbwill need support for the granite.  Span 3 pieces of angle iron across to sit on cabinet left and caninet right with drawer under it and granite on top of iron.  If not granite will crack egg is too heavy.  Same for grill.  How wide will grill be.  32 or 40 inch.  Span angle iron on bith sides and across the back behind the grill.  You will strength support to hold the grill and countertop behind the grill.  Its good reinforcement.  Also 13 inch trash can that is behind a door and on tracka to pull out is plenty big.  Cutting boards can be a slot that they pull out and lay flat behind a pull down door so not to use so much space.  Consider a small section with hooks to hang your utensils when in use vs throw them on the counter.  Same for a towel holder during cooks.  Space between grill, egg, and built in burner actually matters.  I hate i put my egg 10 inches away from the grill.  Looks amaizing.  Cant fit a tray there for putting food on the egg.  Hope it helps

jdMyers

I would lay they stuff out and see it semi visually.

JClark

jdMyers said:

Electric, outlets, refridgerator outlet, abilty to drain and blow air thru the water lines for winter access, plumbing and draining, gas lines or propaine lines, shut off valves, speakers and or speaker lines, radio ans or power for it. Fire extinguisher location are smallnthings thatb come  to mind.  Granite countertop I would consider the leather side not the glossy.  You will have to seal it nore ofteb but the sun wont wear down the finish.  Dont get black the heat storage will melt your arms everytime in the sun.  Consider how much  visible cabinets you want to show and the support.  For example if you have a drawer under the egg.  And your going to span granite above the drawer for the egg to sit on so it matches, then youbwill need support for the granite.  Span 3 pieces of angle iron across to sit on cabinet left and caninet right with drawer under it and granite on top of iron.  If not granite will crack egg is too heavy.  Same for grill.  How wide will grill be.  32 or 40 inch.  Span angle iron on bith sides and across the back behind the grill.  You will strength support to hold the grill and countertop behind the grill.  Its good reinforcement.  Also 13 inch trash can that is behind a door and on tracka to pull out is plenty big.  Cutting boards can be a slot that they pull out and lay flat behind a pull down door so not to use so much space.  Consider a small section with hooks to hang your utensils when in use vs throw them on the counter.  Same for a towel holder during cooks.  Space between grill, egg, and built in burner actually matters.  I hate i put my egg 10 inches away from the grill.  Looks amaizing.  Cant fit a tray there for putting food on the egg.  Hope it helps

Reviewing electrical with our contractor this week.  Expect to have a switched ceiling fan box, as well a switched ceiling outlet for plug in lights.  also electrical to feed kegerator, fridge, looflighter, and countertop accessories.  Because this is on a raised deck, we have flexibility to adjust later as well.

The sink will be cold water only, fed from a garden hose, and drain to a dry well in an area under the deck.  We will have access panels for maintenance and winterizing.  Also looking for sink options with drainer baskets to catch anything we don't want to end up in the drywall.  May also look for a secondary screen that can be removed for maintenance that is in the plumbing under the deck as a backup.  We are in Michigan and I don't want the cost, or risk of pipe damage to tie into water lines from the house.

The cabinets we are favoring right now are by Challenger Designs (love their grill carts, which is what we have now).  Their Ceramic Grill base cabinet is reinforced on the top and can either be made with their countertop (metal) or prepped for a countertop.  We suspect we'll prep for ours.  Each of these bases are 30 inches square with a 10" high pull out drawer and w're planning for 2 side by side in the center of the "U" for two eggs.  Out thought was that each will have plenty of counter to either side for working and when needed, are convenient to run both off of one fireboard, etc.  We are not planning on a burner or gas - just the eggs.  We haven't touched our gas grill in 7 years....  but often wish we had a second egg for a different temp or grate configuration for multiple items.  We don't necessarily need 2 XL - but figure the same size means all of our accessories will fit both of them.  We'll also keep the eggs in the nest stand (the short one) on the base.

We opted for the 24 pull out trash to the left of the sink, thinking that gives us a bin for trash and a bin for returnables.  It also gives us a little more counter space to the left of the sink for prep work or putting a bus tub for dirty dishes that come back into he house to be washed.

Was definitely going to do the leather or honed finish.  And not black.  Hadn't thought about the sun wear on the polished - so glad to hear the finish we were thinking about will help prevent issues with that.

We actually have hooks on our BGE cart now for utensils. - and don't use them.  Partially because we often have more than our dog in the yard when we have others over....and the dogs find the utensils when hanging on the side of the cart.  So, whatever tray was used for whatever went on the grill tends to be where the utensils sit - or sometimes, just on the top of current cart next to the grill.

As far as towels - we tend to have a paper towel holder on hand when we are grilling or outside - both for guests and anything needed for prep/clean up.  The kind that holds the paper towel roll so that it doesn't blow around and you can tear off a sheet at a time on handed.  Works well for us.

Love the feedback - keep it coming!

JClark

jdMyers said:

I would lay they stuff out and see it semi visually.

We are fine tuning the deck size to have built - so getting the cabinets pretty well figured out is so that we don't screw something up by making the deck 2" too short for what we want to do.  We also keep walking through our interior kitchen and using it as a reference.

Eggin_in_PA

That is a nice setup you have there.  Once completed,   I would not want to go back inside..  

JClark

Eggin_in_PA said:

That is a nice setup you have there.  Once completed,   I would not want to go back inside..  

When it's below zero temps outside with blowing snow....  you might be persuaded.

jdMyers

How's this project coming.  Look at salon sink drains for underneath.  Great catch all.

Corv

Got lazy and didn't read all the posts so I might have easily missed something pertinent. But here's a quick comment that might not apply, and if so, I apologize. In kitchens, a standard counter is 25" deep. I made mine 30" deep and that made a big improvement. If any of yours are 25", consider doing this. It's worth it.