OT- electrician help

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Hey guys- need some help. Im switching out all the light fixtures in my house and I ran across something I have never dealt with in the past. I had a ceiling fan on a support beam. When i took the fan down there was no junction box. Just wires sticking out of the beam with a janky plywood spacer (I took that off already). This seems super sketchy to me but wanted to get some input from people with more experience with such things. The beam is solid so I guess the ran wires under the trim or something. 

Anyone have any suggestions on how to safely install a new fixture with this setup? Do I need a box here? Ive never installed one without one. 

I have 2 more identical fans in beams in other rooms so I'm guessing they are installed the same way. Good times. 

DoubleEgger

Yes you need a box 

DoubleEgger

@Jupiter Jim

The Cen-Tex Smoker

DoubleEgger said:

Yes you need a box 

that's what I thought. These guys were "DIY-ers" and had no idea what they were doing. we have found so much janky sh!t during this remodel. The whole house had dark oil based trim like you see where the fixture was at some point. They painted over all of it with white latex paint...have to re-trim the whole house. 

kl8ton

Did you get a permit?!?!?!?!?  :-)

Honestly to me it does not look like a "beam."  Looks like something trimmed out to look like a beam.  Perhaps box is flush with ceiling?  


I am not an electrician.

The Cen-Tex Smoker

kl8ton said:

Did you get a permit?!?!?!?!?  :-)

Honestly to me it does not look like a "beam."  Looks like something trimmed out to look like a beam.  Perhaps box is flush with ceiling?  


I am not an electrician.

that's what I thought too. It's definitely trimmed so it could be plywood or something but it's solid as a rock underneath. There is no box, all the wires were stuffed to the mounting trim of the fan

Legume

I just talked to Lakeway code enforcement, they said "difficult to say, best to see it in person". They said they would be right over.  They said "Oh yeah, we know him"

I guess they'll have some helpful advice.

HeavyG

Since it is already a solid mounting point you can just use one of those pancake boxes if you want.

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Legume said:

I just talked to Lakeway code enforcement, they said "difficult to say, best to see it in person". They said they would be right over.  They said "Oh yeah, we know him"

I guess they'll have some helpful advice.

A$$hole...

ewyllins

Below is the NEC Code for Fans

Ceiling paddle fans not in excess of 35 lb. can be supported directly to an outlet box that is identified for this purpose [422.18(A)].

Ceiling paddle fans exceeding 35 lb. must be supported independently of the outlet box, unless the box is listed to support the weight of the fan [422.18(B)]  (314.27)

I got it form the 2014 National Electric Code

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Legume said:

I just talked to Lakeway code enforcement, they said "difficult to say, best to see it in person". They said they would be right over.  They said "Oh yeah, we know him"

I guess they'll have some helpful advice.

they do know me too. We have been remodeling for 2 years . Slow and steady wins the race. 

xfire_ATX

While you're tearing out that fake beam take down the popcorn ceiling as well.

nolaegghead

Yes, you need a box.  Buy a renovation box (goes in from the front) that works for the fan, cut out the the correct size hole and fish the wires through it.

That's not a solid beam so should be easy to cut out. 

Skiddymarker

I'll bet you have a box that is flush with the ceiling. That plywood box beam was likely  added and you might find that those cables coming thru the plywood beam are actually pigtails from the cables in the box. If you open it up, let us know....

kl8ton

Beam may have been added as the most cost effective way to support a fan in a place a fan didn't exist.  But, you are in Texas, so it seems a fan in every room would be necessary right from the start.

The Cen-Tex Smoker

xfire_ATX said:

While you're tearing out that fake beam take down the popcorn ceiling as well.

It's on the list. The beam is not fake though. That thing is solid as a rock under the trim. 

DaveRichardson

I've always been told that any electrical connection must be in a box.  Uncle was an electrician before he joined the big union in the sky.

The Cen-Tex Smoker

HeavyG said:

Since it is already a solid mounting point you can just use one of those pancake boxes if you want.

Got a pancake box. Did not know those existed. It's the perfect fix for what I needed. Thanks

ewyllins

DaveRichardson said:

I've always been told that any electrical connection must be in a box.  Uncle was an electrician before he joined the big union in the sky.

Correct Sir:

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings
"Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC Cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (L)"
 
2014 NEC Code

Jupiter Jim

The issue with needing a box is because joints and splices are often a source of heat and arcing from bad connections and over loaded circuits and if they are all contained in an approved electrical box it reduces the possibility of a fire. So what you have is in fact not correct, is it a big deal not really. The code as stated above requires all connections to be contained in an approved box. The purpose of the National Electrical Code is to protect people and property from the hazards that might arise from the use of electricity. Electricity is deadly and electricity starts fires in buildings. When we don't follow the code we take a risk.

 Would I install a pancake box yes I would. What is more important than anything in wiring for all the do it yourselfers is grounding all metal parts that you don't want energized like metal boxes, the metal parts of all appliances. If all non current carrying metal parts are grounded and an energized wire comes in contact with the metal it will trip the breaker and turn off the power and when that happens people are not electrocuted. Also NEVER use the bare or green grounding conductor for the white neutral conductor because it will put deadly current on the grounding conductor. The green and white wires do both go to the earth ground but in a building they are never the same and should never be connected to each other.

Sermon over hope it helps and in the future a private message will get me faster. I'm currently a licensed Electrical Contractor in Florida not bragging in any way just letting ya know I have some idea what I'm doing with wires.

Jim

ewyllins

Jupiter Jim said:

The issue with needing a box is because joints and splices are often a source of heat and arcing from bad connections and over loaded circuits and if they are all contained in an approved electrical box it reduces the possibility of a fire. So what you have is in fact not correct, is it a big deal not really. The code as stated above requires all connections to be contained in an approved box. The purpose of the National Electrical Code is to protect people and property from the hazards that might arise from the use of electricity. Electricity is deadly and electricity starts fires in buildings. When we don't follow the code we take a risk.

 Would I install a pancake box yes I would. What is more important than anything in wiring for all the do it yourselfers is grounding all metal parts that you don't want energized like metal boxes, the metal parts of all appliances. If all non current carrying metal parts are grounded and an energized wire comes in contact with the metal it will trip the breaker and turn off the power and when that happens people are not electrocuted. Also NEVER use the bare or green grounding conductor for the white neutral conductor because it will put deadly current on the grounding conductor. The green and white wires do both go to the earth ground but in a building they are never the same and should never be connected to each other.

Sermon over hope it helps and in the future a private message will get me faster. I'm currently a licensed Electrical Contractor in Florida not bragging in any way just letting ya know I have some idea what I'm doing with wires.

Jim

Well said sir

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Thanks Jim! 

Jupiter Jim

Just sent ya message

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Got it. Thanks so much.  

Woodchunk

I can see a seam in the 1 by trim board just below the box. You can also see nail holes filled. Most likely they mounted 2x6 to the ceiling and then used 1x6 to trim out And hang from the 2x6 which would leave a space in there for a wire or raceway

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Woodchunk said:

I can see a seam in the 1 by trim board just below the box. You can also see nail holes filled. Most likely they mounted 2x6 to the ceiling and then used 1x6 to trim out And hang from the 2x6 which would leave a space in there for a wire or raceway

Good eye-  it's trimmed out with room for the wire but the beam is solid underneath. I stripped out a screw putting in the pancake box. 

Ozzie_Isaac

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

Woodchunk said:

I can see a seam in the 1 by trim board just below the box. You can also see nail holes filled. Most likely they mounted 2x6 to the ceiling and then used 1x6 to trim out And hang from the 2x6 which would leave a space in there for a wire or raceway

Good eye-  it's trimmed out with room for the wire but the beam is solid underneath. I stripped out a screw putting in the pancake box. 

"Putting in pancake box", you mean you just installed the new fan like the old one, but don't want evidence on the interwebz?

XC242

How about you do it like all them TV shows and take the whole thing down to the studs, rip out a couple walls, and do the whole thing over. Seems it only takes em about $20-30K to do it that way on the tube. 

kl8ton

XC242 said:

How about you do it like all them TV shows and take the whole thing down to the studs, rip out a couple walls, and do the whole thing over. Seems it only takes em about $20-30K to do it that way on the tube. 

And they do it in a week or two and come out ahead tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.  

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Ozzie_Isaac said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

Woodchunk said:

I can see a seam in the 1 by trim board just below the box. You can also see nail holes filled. Most likely they mounted 2x6 to the ceiling and then used 1x6 to trim out And hang from the 2x6 which would leave a space in there for a wire or raceway

Good eye-  it's trimmed out with room for the wire but the beam is solid underneath. I stripped out a screw putting in the pancake box. 

"Putting in pancake box", you mean you just installed the new fan like the old one, but don't want evidence on the interwebz?

going from a fan to a fixture. Pancake box looks like sh!t and it won't mount flush with the mounting bracket screwed directly to the beam. Back to square 1. Think I'm going to build a spacer and trim it out. It's going to look a little janky but it's 20 feet in the air. I'll just use it to profile anyone who mentions it. No Brisket for you. 

Woodchunk

Can you just screw the normal mounting bracket to the beam and then mount the fixture right to the bracket as if it was on a regular electric box