Bread and Dough... Where to Start??

Cashfan

Thanks for all the info everyone!

The artisan bread is looking good, going to put it in the fridge overnight. I'll make a loaf tomorrow and see what happens.

The water temp was 96 when mixed with the yeast, and I am using KA AP flour. Going to bake it at 450 in a DO with the lid on for 20 min in the egg.

Carolina Q

I let my no knead (camp bread and variations) sit out on the counter for 5-12 hrs. I've never used the fridge. Only refrigerated pizza dough.

Cashfan

Carolina Q said:

I let my no knead (camp bread and variations) sit out on the counter for 5-12 hrs. I've never used the fridge. Only refrigerated pizza dough.

I put this batch together 10hrs ago, its been on the kitchen table since then. Should I leave it out overnight?  Set aside enough for a loaf and leave that out? Probably be baking it around 8 or 9 tomorrow morning.

Carolina Q

I don't know. I would probably bake it now. Curious how it will turn out after that long.

Cashfan

SciAggie said:

@Cashfan Sorry I'm late to the party. I understand the frustration of trying to make a loaf of bread that suits you. It is definitely a journey with successes and failures along the way. 
@caliking posted the link above to a post I made recently with the method that yeilds good results for me. Here it is again: http://eggheadforum.com/discussion/1200631/bread-i-finally-figured-it-out/p1

Some onservations I have directed to your post: If your bread isn't rising there are but a few things to check. First, make sure your yeast is good. You can measure it out in some of the water for the recipe and make sure it is active. Be sure the water isn't too hot - above 110/120 it will kill the yeast. Second, chlorinated water is hard on yeast - if your city water is heavily chlorinated that could be an issue. You can see if bottled water makes a difference. Third, give the dough TIME. Think of time as an ingredient. Yeast is a living thing and as such sometimes it doesn't know to follow the instructions. During the first rising you will have to learn how to make things work for you. More yeast and warm conditions make the dough rise faster. Less yeast and a cool room and it will rise more slowly. The flour makes a difference. AP flour makes a more blonde colored loaf. Bread flour is higher in protein and makes a darker loaf. Brands matter. I like King Arthur much more than Gold Medal flour. 

Regarding a cloche or DO: the purpose of either is to retain moisture as the bread begins to bake giving the crust a favorable environment in which to form. I haven't tried it, but I'm not sure that inverting a SS mixing bowl over the bread for the first 15-20 minutes might not work as well as a cloche or DO. 

lastly, it is my opinion that how you handle the dough is equally as important as the recipe. You are trying to develop the gluten in the flour so it can capture the gas produced by the yeast. When you handle the dough be mindful of those tiny gas chambers and try to preserve them with gentle handling. Folding and kneading develops the dough. Rising, preshaping, and final loaf shaping preserve the gas in the dough until baking.

Have fun. Don't let the process make you nuts. If you stick with it - you will master the process in no time. 

Thanks for the feedback. The recipe i made is similar to yours in the above link, but I made about twice as much. I used 96deg water, not room temp, and proofed the yeast for a couple min as well.

After reading the posts today and the 5 Min Artisan book, I am sure I overworked though dough quite a bit before, and probably killed the yeast by using water that was too hot. 

Cashfan

Carolina Q said:

I don't know. I would probably bake it now. Curious how it will turn out after that long.

Its tempting, but it would be well past my bedtime by the time it got done. I get very impatient when i'm tired, and I dont want to cut it short.

Think I will form a loaf and leave it out, covered, and put the rest in the fridge, then make two loaves in the morning.

Cashfan

Made two loaves today. Interesting results. 

They are both ugly, but the crust on the first one was good, and the inside of the second was good.

I apologize for the pics after they were cut. I thought I had taken those pics already.

This first loaf is one that I formed this morning after being in the fridge overnight. It sat out for about 90 min while the egg was warming up and the other loaf was baking. Baked at 450, 20 min covered, 25 uncovered inside a DO. It had some oven spring, but not much. Its the better of the two loaves.


This other loaf was one that I left out overnight. I covered it and it tripled in size overnight. I reformed it while the egg was warming up. No oven rise at all, and it hardly was browned at all too. Inside DO, 20 min covered, 25 uncovered. Interal temp was 205 when I pulled it.




I am curious as to why the second one didn't spring or brown, I am sure the egg was and DO were warmed. (it was baked first) I like the look of the inside better though.

Thanks for looking!

caliking

Those look good to me!

It looks to me like you got better oven spring on the second loaf. I would have thought that the one left out all night would have been overproofed. I guess it was not. Don't know why it didn't brown. Did you use AP flour? It tends to make lighter loaves I think.

Is the thermo on your egg calibrated? Could you try the same baking time and temp in your oven to see if you get a similar result? I would have thought that baking at 450°F for the times you mentioned would have produced a darker loaf. 

But if it tastes good, I wouldn't  sweat the details

Cashfan

@caliking

Thermo is 3-4 degrees light. The temp would have ranged from 430-470 for the duration of both cooks. Is that too loose of temps to produce a good loaf?

I can try my oven, I dont like using it though....: )

Here is a pic of the second loaf at the 20 min mark when I removed the lid and parchment. It got a little more brown, but not very much.

caliking

That loaf looks like it had great oven spring. 
Still perplexed about the color though, since the parchment doesnt look browned either. Where was the thermo placed - grid or dome? 

Maybe try without the parchment, as it may have shielded the loaf somewhat? I have not had any problems using a CIDO without parchment. And I would try baking in the oven at least once just to see if it turns out any different. Just speculating.

How did it taste? Looks pretty good from here

Cashfan

caliking said:

That loaf looks like it had great oven spring. 
Still perplexed about the color though, since the parchment doesnt look browned either. Where was the thermo placed - grid or dome? 

Maybe try without the parchment, as it may have shielded the loaf somewhat? I have not had any problems using a CIDO without parchment. And I would try baking in the oven at least once just to see if it turns out any different. Just speculating.

How did it taste? Looks pretty good from here

Thermo was in the dome. I have enough dough to make two small loaves, and will do one on the egg and one in the oven. 

I used parchment because it was easier for me to move the loaves around without handling so much. 

The one loaf does have oven spring. It looks better in pics than in person. Flavor on both is ok. I think I will try a differant recipe next time, probably @SciAggie's. I will have some SAF Yeast coming tomorrow, and will use KA Bread Flour this time too. These loaves were KA All-Purpose.

jtcBoynton

@Cashfan  Using 96º water to mix the dough is not too hot for the yeast.  If I remember correctly, bread yeast can tolerate temps up to 120º.  The 90 minutes from frig to baking seems a bit short.  It is best if the dough warms up and the yeast get more active again before baking.  Bread flour instead of AP flour will help with the browning.  What did you do to prevent the dough surface from drying during proofing?  If the dough dries too much it will provide more resistance to spring.

Cashfan

jtcBoynton said:

@Cashfan  Using 96º water to mix the dough is not too hot for the yeast.  If I remember correctly, bread yeast can tolerate temps up to 120º.  The 90 minutes from frig to baking seems a bit short.  It is best if the dough warms up and the yeast get more active again before baking.  Bread flour instead of AP flour will help with the browning.  What did you do to prevent the dough surface from drying during proofing?  If the dough dries too much it will provide more resistance to spring.

I didn't do anything to prevent drying. I formed the loaves and left them on the parchment on the counter. The loaf that browned more was out longer than the one that didn't brown. 

Cashfan

Thanks for all the help and encouragement everyone! I am going to keep plugging away at bread making.

Two good loaves today!!

This first loaf was out of the fridge, formed and sat for about 90 min, then baked in the oven at 450. No parchment, 20 min covered, 20 uncovered in a DO.




The second loaf was formed and sat for just over 2 1/2 hrs. Then in the egg at 450, no parchment, 20min covered and 20 uncovered in DO. 




The crust and flavor was good on both loaves. They went well with the chili I made yesterday.


Next batch will be with @SciAggie's recipe with bread flour. That looks like the perfect bread. Probably bump the egg up to 500 as well.

I'm back to work the rest of week, so no more baking till the weekend probably. I'll do some reading, since "The Food Lab", and "Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast" arrived today with some SAF yeast and a new DO. I ordered a banneton, cloth, and 00 Flour today..... 

caliking

The great thing about tweaking your baking game is that the results just get more delicious Those loaves are lookin good!

Cashfan

caliking said:

The great thing about tweaking your baking game is that the results just get more delicious Those loaves are lookin good!

Thanks for all the help!!

I am surprised at the color difference of today's loaves vs yesterdays. Any idea why? Does it help to let dough sit in the fridge for a couple days? Seems like that is the biggest difference between today's cook and yesterday's.

HogHeaven

Why a loaf of sourdough will not brown? Rarely is it because your baking temperature is too low. Sourdough bread is best backed at 500° because it is a low PH dough and requires a high temperature to brown. 

Usually not browning has to do with over proofing your dough. The longer your yeast has to feast on the natural sugar in the flour the more it will consume. Once the sugar has been depleted your loaf will not brown regardless of how much you turn up the heat.

The browning of your crust is caused by the Maillard process and when there is no sugar there is nothing in the dough that will brown and you get what is commonly known as a blond loaf.

northGAcock

caliking said:

That loaf looks like it had great oven spring. 
Still perplexed about the color though, since the parchment doesnt look browned either. Where was the thermo placed - grid or dome? 

Maybe try without the parchment, as it may have shielded the loaf somewhat? I have not had any problems using a CIDO without parchment. And I would try baking in the oven at least once just to see if it turns out any different. Just speculating.

How did it taste? Looks pretty good from here

A baste of butter half way into the cook?

Lodiwine

If still problems try Craftsy.com. Classes online or on DVD. https://course.craftsy.com/play/10618
Not sure if this will open for you as they charge a fee for most of their courses. I tried the one on Artisian Bread. Excellent.