Bread - my nemesis

SciAggie

I thought brisket was hard to consistently cook well - pshhhhh - piece of cake. I though learning to bake a nice hearth loaf with an open crumb would be something I could do. I mean, I see pictures; I'm not a complete moron. I should be able to learn this, right? Well folks, bread makes me crazy. I'll make a killer loaf and then a few complete fails. Yes, I take notes - write down what I do. I don't have a picture of my most recent failure because I launched it out the back door as far as I could throw it. 
Here endeth the rant. Carry on please. 

Botch

Can't offer any suggestions, but can only agree with you.  I haven't tried bread yet but I went nuts trying to get the perfect pizza, took careful notes and used baker's percentages, got a taring scale, and while the pies were mostly good (had to toss one), two that were perfect, I couldn't get the consistency down and actually burned myself out on pizza, completely.
I've had pizza maybe twice in the last two years, both times for "going-away" luncheons.  May have to dip my toe back in one of these days.
But, yeah, dough is finicky as 'ell.  

SciAggie

I just needed to vent. It's all good. It can be frustrating trying to achieve some of the goals and standards we set for ourselves. I'll be starting a new batch tonight. The next fail, I'll try to take a pic before I throw it out in frustration

jtcBoynton

Do you weigh your ingredients?  I weigh any flour or flour like ingredient.  Trying to measure flour by volume results in wide variations of how much flour is added.   Once I started weighing flour, my loaves all turn out good or better.

SciAggie

jtcBoynton said:

Do you weigh your ingredients?  I weigh any flour or flour like ingredient.  Trying to measure flour by volume results in wide variations of how much flour is added.   Once I started weighing flour, my loaves all turn out good or better.

Yes, I weigh my ingredients. I use a thermapen to measure water temp and mixed dough temperature.  The loaf that crashed today stuck badly to my banneton. I seldom have trouble with bread sticking but when it does stick it totally deflates the loaf by the time the dough comes out. 
I picked up a kindle copy of Flour, Water, Salt, and Yeast. It's a good read so far. I'm sure it will help.

Botch

SciAggie said:

The next fail, I'll try to take a pic before I throw it out in frustration

I would think even "failed" homemade bread would be better than anything you could buy.  

mrs_story

I'm scared to try bread on the grill.  I *want* to, but I feel very intimidated.  We have a bread machine that I use to make doughs & bake in the oven (and a yummy pizza dough with beer in it).  I've thought about baking in the egg on my stone.  But then I see about people using Dutch ovens.  I don't have a Dutch oven.  Then I get scared all over again. 

SciAggie

@mrs_story Don't be afraid.  In spite of my grumpy rant I really enjoy making bread. As @Botch points out, homemade bread is better than store bought in almost every way. 

gdenby

I bet I was way worse than you @SciAggie . Most people say the 1st 3 attempts are poor. Others, 7. Me, oh try 12. I had bricks, loafs that were not chewable. Pounded them apart, and served the crumbs to winter birds.

Finally had good results, and had a recipe down to minutes/temp of ferment for the sourdough and .gm of salt. Then, when my youngest left the house, and me and the wife didn't even eat 1/2 loaf a week, I stopped.

Don't know where the D__'d recipe is.

Keep up. You will get there. Along the way, I s'pose you will come to appreciate the generations of wives who made loaves every few days.

Just to show it can be done, a decent whole wheat sourdough from a few years ago, Egg'd.

GrateEggspectations

Food for thought - my last few attempts at bread were ruined by bad yeast. Bread is finicky! (Sorry about the bold.)

SciAggie

GrateEggspectations said:

Food for thought - my last few attempts at bread were ruined by bad yeast. Bread is finicky! (Sorry about the bold.)

Thanks. I'll check the yeast. I know it hasn't expired, but won't hurt to check it. 

texaswig

I'm a big fan of the artisan bread in 5 minutes recipes. 

paqman

Have you tried adding more flour to your banneton?  What kind of yeast are you using?

SciAggie

paqman said:

Have you tried adding more flour to your banneton?  What kind of yeast are you using?

I use the banneton frequently. What is enough flour ten times is suddenly not enough on another occasion. The yeast is instant dry yeast I get in jars (not the packets). I make bread relatively often - it's not like I'm a complete novice. I just have trouble consistently making bread that meets my expectations. 

gdenby

If you are cooking in a regular oven, get a ceramic cloche. They trap enough steam that the bread rises reliably, but still develops a good crust.

Egg is harder. I used double pizza stone preheated to 450. Used a water mist on the dough right after setting it on the stone. Sometimes the bottom was a little burnt.

My recollection is that I tended to both over work the dough and over proof. Would not get a good spring. A turning point was when I made something closer to a ciabatta. The dough was really loose and gloopey. Sort of flopped onto the stones. But it puffed nicely, and was crispy outside. After that, I reduced the amount of kneeding, and would not let it proof more than a few hours. If it didn't rise well from the yeast, I would trust to the steam to lift it.

Stormbringer

I've written a lot of articles about baking bread on my blog. I use a minimal knead method, which produces consistent results for a bloomer loaf every time and reduces the scope for things going awry. There are no knead methods as well, there is one on the King Arthur website.



I blogged about using a pizza stone in an oven, mainly because most people in the UK don't have a BGE. You can do this on a pizza stone in a Big Green Egg as well though, cooking indirect. I often bake a pizza or do rib-eyes on direct heat, and then add in a pizza stone to gain heat as the egg cools down a little. When it gets to 220C/425F, I put in the dough to bake bread with the left-over heat.

You can use this method to bake fun breads, e.g. tiger bread.



Hope these articles help, if you have any questions please ask.

SciAggie

 Things are improving. My technique for forming loaves and creating tension needed work as well as the way I was strengthening the dough. @gdenby Thanks, I've had a cloche for many years. I've made bread for a long time, I've just been on a quest recently to make CONSISTENTLY good bread. 

mrs_story

It looks really good to me! 

bigbadben

SciAggie said:

 Things are improving. My technique for forming loaves and creating tension needed work as well as the way I was strengthening the dough. @gdenby Thanks, I've had a cloche for many years. I've made bread for a long time, I've just been on a quest recently to make CONSISTENTLY good bread. 

Beautiful loaf. You clearly know what you are doing. I was going to approach this as how can I help you learn how to bake. I have helped several people on another Kamado forum. I would have suggested Josey Baker Bread as a resource. He starts with simple loaves and over 9 recipes improves your skills to sourdough hearth loaves. 

I will put on my research scientist hat now and tell you have have tried to repeat literature reports with varying degree of reproducibility and success. My suggestion to you is details, the devil is in the details!  Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more about bead and pizza. 

SciAggie

@bigbadben Thanks. I have the Josey Baker book as well as Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast - both have been helpful. You are right about the devil being in the details. For open crumb one usually wants high hydration. Hydration has the downside of not being strong and the loaves don't want to hold shape. I have been trying to develop the skills of turning dough during bulk fermentation and then shaping wet doughs. I am discovering two things: that folding and shaping are hugely important, and that they are a tactile skill one must develop. I have made a batch of bread every day this week and my skills are improving. Today for example I am concentrating on my bench technique for shaping my boule. I should have some pictures of the oven spring I am getting as my skills improve using the same dough (if anyone cares to see them). 
I certainly might take you up on the offer to discuss on the side. Thanks again. 

bigbadben

I want to see your photos!  

Maybe I can make a couple suggestions.  

1) grab a copy of Tartine. There is a HUGE amount of detail on how Chad prepares his loaves. I think it is too much for a total newbe, but good once someone has the basics. 

2) I proof my loaves overnight in fridge, place the whole proofing basket in a bag from the supermarket veggie section. The cold dough is easier to transfer. Bake right from fridge, 12-48 hr rest. 

3) use parchment paper to transfer the loaves. 

You can find some of my results on Instagram and Twitter @bensbites. 

SciAggie

@bigbadben I'll pick up a copy of Tartine. The particular recipe I'm using at the moment uses a biga that's 68% hydration that ferments overnight (12 hours) then is brought up to 75% hydration after the final mix. My mixing technique is improving. I'm then folding every 1/2 hour or so for 3 or 4 folds during bulk fermentation. This process has improved my loaves quite a bit. 
My current learning curve is in pre-shaping and then final forming of the bread. I'm trying to learn how to create good tension in the boule before the final proof in a banneton. 
I have gone back to parchment paper for transferring the bread to the oven during this learning process (trying to do good science and eliminate variables). 
By the way, I just started an Instagram account: wood_fired_foodie if you want to take a look. I'm installing a Forno Bravo wood fired oven this summer/fall (slow process). Bread and pizzas are just part of the reason for the oven but I want to be on top of my game with bread as I learn to use the oven. That's why I'm working on my bread workflow now.