I don't care....

GATraveller

I'm sure there are a large group of people who find clowns offensive and are reminded of John Wayne Gacy's atrocious actions every time they see one.  

Eggcelsior

theyolksonyou

@Sardonicus  

TexanOfTheNorth

Legume said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Let me just say I have no issue with people, of their own free will, removing it, or private companies freely removing it.

I will have an issue if the government intervenes and forces people to remove it.  That is a trampling of rights.

I would probably agree with that, but has that happened?  I believe gov has the right to deny having it officially displayed on gov facilities, not tell you you can't wear it as a bikini, if that's your thing.

@GATraveller ?  equating a serial killer dressed as a clown to the flag?  I don't get it.

I fully support that sweet woman's right to wear the confedetate flag!

jonnymack

henapple said:

Wish I was in Dixie.... 

I'm torn here, while clearly a racist which I don't condone I feel this particular racist should be given a pass here.

Sardonicus

jonnymack said:

henapple said:

Wish I was in Dixie.... 

I'm torn here, while clearly a racist which I don't condone I feel this particular racist should be given a pass here.

She should take down that flag immediately!

GregW

Sardonicus said:

jonnymack said:

henapple said:

Wish I was in Dixie.... 

I'm torn here, while clearly a racist which I don't condone I feel this particular racist should be given a pass here.

She should take down that flag immediately!

And those pretty little bottoms too........

GATraveller

I think Mike Rowe makes a great point:

Racism and terrorism and all the other hate-filled “-isms” that plague the species will never be eliminated by banning flags, burning books, limiting speech, or outlawing white sheets and pointy little hats. When Dylan Roof walked into The First Emanuel Church and killed nine black Americans, he wasn’t waving his rebel flag or screaming the N-word. He didn’t look like a racist. He didn’t act like a racist. Until he started killing people.

 

Sardonicus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ8lboi32h8

Legume

very true @GATraveller but they're not being banned, people/businesses/gov offices are choosing to not have them represent them.  but back to the original question.  you've said other things are offensive that aren't banned (eg clowns) and you've said that banning them won't stop racism - totally agree.

but my question, what does it represent beyond the obvious offensive things - what redeeming value, what does it mean to a southerner, because I'm not one and I'm trying to be open minded, not trolling.

GATraveller

I couldn't tell ya but maybe this guy can?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks 

The Cen-Tex Smoker

GATraveller said:

Yet clowns still roam freely about the circus and carnival.......

We do not do clowns. 

GATraveller

I'm indifferent to clowns but my sister-in-law is terrified.  

TexanOfTheNorth

This clown always gave me the willies 

theyolksonyou

@legume that's really hard to answer.

Growing up, I never thought about the perspective of African Americans regarding the flag. In all honesty, I've never, to my knowledge, read about the "corner stone speech" and I'm from Georgia where he was from and was eventually governor.

 My hometown made national news for the idiots who effed up a parade!  btw, the police force found out shortly before thru social media and went to keep them out of the heavy minority areas and on their stated route. They weren't supporting the effort, but trying to keep peace. Not reported.   Anyway...

Also, there's a great Huffpost (did I say that?) piece about Dalton and race relations floating somewhere on the inter webs. Dalton city is 48% Hispanic and 42% white. 


I'm fairly young (43) and I grew up in a house where racial slurs were commonly used.   Thankfully, I've grown into my own man. My kids are very in time with equality across racial lines. They are in a very diverse group at school. That previous  culture dies with me. 

Here are some thoughts, not my attitude, but my opinions. 

What we are taught is the civil war was more about states rights vs federal rule. Slavery was supported by many in the north as well and that was really a secondary reason. 

We're Johnny Reb!  We want less government.  We're southerners dammit and that flag is ours!

In short, I think it's just a southern pride thing. Kinda a "don't mess with Texas" sort of deal.( don't take that wrong, I understand fully that the undertones of the flag don't equate, it's the attitude I'm comparing). We also conveniently leave out the whole intimidation thing with the KKK and civil rights movement objectors using the flag.

 Are there racist in the south, hell yeah! Of all makes and models. Are there good folks here, ditto. Are there white folks who truly believe that flag is part of their heritage and just don't see the other side, hard to believe, but yes. 

I rambled a bit.  Hope it make a little sense. Again, not condoning, just an opinion on southern pride. 

henapple

To a lot of liberals the American flag is a sign of colonialism and capitalism. It offends them. Do we take it down? Atrocities happened under the flag. Yankees owned slaves under it. Native American people were treated as bad as anyone. We took Mexico under it. We dropped 2 atom bombs under it. Where does the pc stuff stop?
Ive never flown the rebel flag just for the reason that it was hijacked. There's nothing we can do about it so I don't. It does mean more to many southern people. 
I thinks it ridiculous that they're going as far as taking it off the General Lee on TV. Smfh. Even more than that they've stopped selling it at the Gettysburg memorial. As far as not understanding the south.. You won't unless you're  from here.

caliking

it's not the state flag of SC, so why is it flying on state property?

And if folks really want to have a  go at it, why don't they work on convincing groups like the KKK and other yahoo's from misappropriating symbols of their heritage? I'm sure Billy Bob could help, seeing as how he so cleverly duped a Wal-mart employee into making his ISIS cake.

GATraveller

I can agree with that @theyolksonyou.  I am 42.  I was not alive during the Jim Crowe South.  I would say to my generation of Southerners the flag stood for the "line in the sand".  We don't want a big federal government - maintain our highways, protect the borders and stay out of our way.  You can only push us so far and tax us so much before we rebel.  It was about a states right to say "F you....enough is enough!!".  I never thought of it as a racist symbol.  My ancestor who fought with the D Company of the 8th Regiment from Meriwether County didn't march all the way up to Gettysburgh, PA to fight for the institution of slavery.  They were poor share croppers who didn't own slaves and most likely hadn't even met anyone who did.  They were fighting against taxation - it even says so in his journal.

Maybe we were quite naive but to us the only people who ever had a problem with the flag were folks from up north (which suited us just fine).

Legume

Well damn Yolk, you went and got all articulate and stuff.

Thanks for the thoughtful response to the question.  To be honest, I'm sure I'm influenced by the media take on this - it's not in my blood, so the racial overtones are what hit me first (that and the unsettling preponderance of people saying or doing stupid things that happen to be wearing or waving the flag). 

I'm not a native Texan, so I cringe rather than swell with pride when I hear the cry of the republic here and the call for secession, but I get the states' rights argument, it's not exclusive to any one state or the South.  California (where I grew up) perpetually goes through grass-roots movements or discussion on splitting the state into two for various reasons, it's not the same, but every state has their stuff.  I guess understand a little better now how people see this as part of their heritage.

That being said - nobody is taking it away, sure, it's getting kicked around, but those are opinion-driven actions, not encroachment on freedoms that I've heard so far.

tarheelmatt

caliking said:

it's not the state flag of SC, so why is it flying on state property?

And if folks really want to have a  go at it, why don't they work on convincing groups like the KKK and other yahoo's from misappropriating symbols of their heritage? I'm sure Billy Bob could help, seeing as how he so cleverly duped a Wal-mart employee into making his ISIS cake.

Second paragraph is a little stereotypical. 

Fact is you cannot fix stupid, period. 

tarheelmatt

Great reads @theyolksonyou and @GATraveller ! 

theyolksonyou

tarheelmatt said:

caliking said:

it's not the state flag of SC, so why is it flying on state property?

And if folks really want to have a  go at it, why don't they work on convincing groups like the KKK and other yahoo's from misappropriating symbols of their heritage? I'm sure Billy Bob could help, seeing as how he so cleverly duped a Wal-mart employee into making his ISIS cake.

Second paragraph is a little stereotypical. 

Fact is you cannot fix stupid, period. 

It flows both ways. 

tarheelmatt

theyolksonyou said:

tarheelmatt said:

caliking said:

it's not the state flag of SC, so why is it flying on state property?

And if folks really want to have a  go at it, why don't they work on convincing groups like the KKK and other yahoo's from misappropriating symbols of their heritage? I'm sure Billy Bob could help, seeing as how he so cleverly duped a Wal-mart employee into making his ISIS cake.

Second paragraph is a little stereotypical. 

Fact is you cannot fix stupid, period. 

It flows both ways. 

Exactly the point! 

tarheelmatt

Over 50,000 free black men volunteered to fight for the confederacy. .... but why? Not for slavery my friends. 

theyolksonyou

BTW, this is the national flag of the confederacy (the forth variant), not the high jacked battle flag. 

Legume

@henapple and @GATraveller thanks for your responses as well. I started my reply to yolk a while ago and got sidetracked with work.  I just now saw yours after I hit post and I appreciate the insight, although I do think that saying 'you won't understand it if you're not from here' probably paints the kind of insular picture that causes people to stereotype.  I'm just asking to try to understand what it means to people - the part that's not on the news.  I'm not trying to agree with it or become Southern.

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Eggcelsior said:

You can bet your ass that dude is within a stone's throw of a confederate flag  

The Cen-Tex Smoker

tarheelmatt said:

Over 50,000 free black men volunteered to fight for the confederacy. .... but why? Not for slavery my friends. 

Nope:

Though no one knows for sure, the number of slaves who fought and labored for the South was modest, estimated Stauffer. Blacks who shouldered arms for the Confederacy numbered more than 3,000 but fewer than 10,000, he said, among the hundreds of thousands of whites who served. Black laborers for the cause numbered from 20,000 to 50,000.

Those are not big numbers, said Stauffer. Black Confederate soldiers likely represented less than 1 percent of Southern black men of military age during that period, and less than 1 percent of Confederate soldiers. And their motivation for serving isn’t taken into account by the numbers, since some may have been forced into service, and others may have seen fighting as a way out of privation. 

tarheelmatt

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

tarheelmatt said:

Over 50,000 free black men volunteered to fight for the confederacy. .... but why? Not for slavery my friends. 

Nope:

Though no one knows for sure, the number of slaves who fought and labored for the South was modest, estimated Stauffer. Blacks who shouldered arms for the Confederacy numbered more than 3,000 but fewer than 10,000, he said, among the hundreds of thousands of whites who served. Black laborers for the cause numbered from 20,000 to 50,000.

Those are not big numbers, said Stauffer. Black Confederate soldiers likely represented less than 1 percent of Southern black men of military age during that period, and less than 1 percent of Confederate soldiers. And their motivation for serving isn’t taken into account by the numbers, since some may have been forced into service, and others may have seen fighting as a way out of privation. 

Please state your resources and I'll state mine as well. Mine actually states between 50 and 100k. 

henapple

Oh ****... It's on now.