OT for my HVAC peeps

billt01

What is the advantage of the new bigger filters.

I was purchasing a 3 pack for about 30 bucks (24 x 24 x 1's)

These new 20 x 20 x 4 filters are >50 bucks for two

lkapigian

"Generally speaking " Surface area and lower pressure drop VS the 1"

The big Variable here is what MERV Rating  ( Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value) are you looking at 

Legume

Surface area?

JohnInCarolina

Legume said:

Surface area?

billt01

lkapigian said:

"Generally speaking " Surface area and lower pressure drop VS the 1"

The big Variable here is what MERV Rating  ( Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value) are you looking at 

 Thanks for not being a smart a$$ and actually answering..

So I guess the MERV rating saves you long term but the filters hit you in the mouth.

The frequency change of the bigger filters extend out a bit as well (3x longer..)

OhioEgger

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

lkapigian

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

billt01

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

is there any real time data which can be viewed to determine if this is the case?

Legume

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Depends how bad your wife's allergies are.

I go middle of the road with MERV, I want a decent level of filtration but don't want to stress the system too much.

fishlessman

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

this is what i would do as well....its also less expensive to change them out with conditions like dust, pollen, dog hair etc who am i kidding, i would probably just remove them

ColtsFan

I run these and change 2x year

billt01

Just confirmed, the ones I just swapped to are

MPR 1550 / MERV rating of 12

lkapigian

billt01 said:

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

is there any real time data which can be viewed to determine if this is the case?

Best thing to do is measure the Total Static Pressure of your system, design is .5" Static Pressure, most I see are in excess of 1" 

PhinnGerbang

lkapigian said:

billt01 said:

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

is there any real time data which can be viewed to determine if this is the case?

Best thing to do is measure the Total Static Pressure of your system, design is .5" Static Pressure, most I see are in excess of 1" 

An extra half an inch can make a big difference.  

Ozzie_Isaac

We have horrible installers in our area.  The worst is Chas Roberts.  They have all the new track home contracts in most of Arizona.  You are lucky if they even hook all the ducts up.  Had one house they just cut out a bunch of roof trusses and installed the unit without bracing anything.

They also use special units they have made in Mexico that have everything cheapened up.  Still a name brand, but special made extra **** for them.

Occasionally you will get an installer who works for them that does a great job and takes pride.  I suspect they move on to better companies, because they are a rare find.

(this is all my opinion and based on many many home inspections and conversations with many other HVAC installers) 

GrateEggspectations

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

This is interesting. I was told the same by an HVAC technician maybe ten years back, so started using cheap filters. Then, a few years ago , another technician balked at that suggestion and told me to change back to more restrictive filters. 

lkapigian

GrateEggspectations said:

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

This is interesting. I was told the same by an HVAC technician maybe ten years back, so started using cheap filters. Then, a few years ago , another technician balked at that suggestion and told me to change back to more restrictive filters. 

Delivered Air= Delivered Capacity. Most HVAC systems are grossly oversized with undersized ducting …so you may be paying for 4kw of air , your system needs s only delivering 3 “ well it’s always cooled well” that’s because your home only needs 3

not unusual for us to downsize nearly every ac we replace just by fixing the ductwork, saving 40-60% on KWH is not uncommon with the combination of more efficient and properly sized equipment, and in Ca where it’s over .25 per KWH it’s big, from a solar standpoint, don’t base your needs upon your current consumption, though the solar companies would love you to buy more than you need … off my soapbox lol

alaskanassasin

.0619 per KWH here.

lkapigian

alaskanassasin said:

.0619 per KWH here.

Cali is horrible for many reasons utility rates are one of them, phasing out Natural Gas another ….and out price at the pump, lol

fishlessman

lkapigian said:

GrateEggspectations said:

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

This is interesting. I was told the same by an HVAC technician maybe ten years back, so started using cheap filters. Then, a few years ago , another technician balked at that suggestion and told me to change back to more restrictive filters. 

Delivered Air= Delivered Capacity. Most HVAC systems are grossly oversized with undersized ducting …so you may be paying for 4kw of air , your system needs s only delivering 3 “ well it’s always cooled well” that’s because your home only needs 3

not unusual for us to downsize nearly every ac we replace just by fixing the ductwork, saving 40-60% on KWH is not uncommon with the combination of more efficient and properly sized equipment, and in Ca where it’s over .25 per KWH it’s big, from a solar standpoint, don’t base your needs upon your current consumption, though the solar companies would love you to buy more than you need … off my soapbox lol

23.64 cents here in mass, makes no sense that its about the same in ca.

anyways, the hvac co  down the street has this motto.......have a hot wife, call us

Ozzie_Isaac

lkapigian said:

GrateEggspectations said:

lkapigian said:

OhioEgger said:

Last time I had an HVAC tech here he told me to only use the cheapest filters I could find (least effective) because it would make things easier on the system so it would last longer. I have no idea whether this is good advice or not.

Unless I have designed the system I would agree with that , unfortunately most residential duct systems lack in proper design and are mostly undersized , putting high MERV Filters  will cause equipment issues especially with the new Indoor Motors 

This is interesting. I was told the same by an HVAC technician maybe ten years back, so started using cheap filters. Then, a few years ago , another technician balked at that suggestion and told me to change back to more restrictive filters. 

Delivered Air= Delivered Capacity. Most HVAC systems are grossly oversized with undersized ducting …so you may be paying for 4kw of air , your system needs s only delivering 3 “ well it’s always cooled well” that’s because your home only needs 3

not unusual for us to downsize nearly every ac we replace just by fixing the ductwork, saving 40-60% on KWH is not uncommon with the combination of more efficient and properly sized equipment, and in Ca where it’s over .25 per KWH it’s big, from a solar standpoint, don’t base your needs upon your current consumption, though the solar companies would love you to buy more than you need … off my soapbox lol

Are you saying when the air velocity out of my fully open vent is close to 150 knots and whistling I might have ducting that is to small?

—————————————————

Don’t even get me started on solar.  If anyone is thinking about solar install, please msg me.  I hate the solar companies with a passion.  Their lyin cheatin sales people have **** more good people than I can shake a stick at.

If you don’t want to msg me, here are the highlights:

1.  Don’t install on your roof.  If you must, get an independent roofer to inspect the roof.  Basic system costs $5k-$7k to remove and reinstall just so you can fix your roof.  Roofs have finite lifespans of ~20 years, no matter what the installer told you about a “lifetime” roof.  The solar companies will verbally tell
you the roof is fine, but be vague on the paperwork and leave you high and dry.  Seen it 5 times since January already. (All 5 roofs needed replacing had solar systems less than 4 years old in them)

2.  Get the cash price and clarity on who/what the tax credit goes to.  After their “free” no payments 12 months, the loan/lease kicks in.  They charge you an arm and a leg for their financing, like 50%.  They generally take the tax credit and back it into the price they show you, so you are actually $10k more than they show you on paper because their hand waving they do with the tax credit.

3. Don’t trust a single thing they say about warranties, service, guarantees.

4.  If you ever want to sell your house plan on pre-paying the entire lease or paying off the loan.  They add maybe $5k to home value if it is actually paid off (even if they charged you $50k).

5.  Make sure you are clear on if it is a lease or a loan and what happens at the end.

6.  Did I mention don’t trust anything they say?

I have seen more folks lose a ton of money on the promise of solar than I can count.  They believed the salesman and trusted what they are saying.

It doesn’t add value anywhere near what it costs, the actual savings takes decades to recoup if ever.  Technology keeps getting better and cheaper.

If you can, mount it on the ground, get a battery bank so you can use your own generated power at night (buy backs keep getting less and less), buy the system cash, don’t finance.  They absolutely take advantage with their financing terms.  They will say they don’t have a cash price, keep pressing, if they cannot show it to you, get a different company.

As an example we were quoted all in $38k + they got tax credit for a financed system.  Or I could pay $25k cash and I got my $10k tax credit.

Thankfully I barely dodged the bullet …. Also, if you have elderly parents living in a home you own, they will put a lien on your house and install solar for the tenant.  Then tell you, oh that was mistake, but what is done is done.  Here is the bill.

rant over.

Legume

I have talked to several companies and though I haven't pulled the trigger, when/if I do it will be a local company that serves the greater Denver area, they are purely local and straightforward.  I found the larger the company - the more national roots they have, the more BS and car salesmanship and the lower efficiency panels they put in by default.

Also, my understanding is if you don't have a battery system, you won't get power from your panels when the utility electricity goes down, they have safety stop gaps that ensure no power is flowing to the lines, but having a battery in line allows you to continue to generate power and just be freestanding until grid power comes up again. I may have part of that wrong, not sure.

Ozzie_Isaac

Legume said:

I have talked to several companies and though I haven't pulled the trigger, when/if I do it will be a local company that serves the greater Denver area, they are purely local and straightforward.  I found the larger the company - the more national roots they have, the more BS and car salesmanship and the lower efficiency panels they put in by default.

Also, my understanding is if you don't have a battery system, you won't get power from your panels when the utility electricity goes down, they have safety stop gaps that ensure no power is flowing to the lines, but having a battery in line allows you to continue to generate power and just be freestanding until grid power comes up again. I may have part of that wrong, not sure.

You are 100% correct on the battery or some sort of interrupt required to allow power when the main grid goes out.  They don’t advertise that issue and I have caught a few salesmen lying and or not understanding that detail.  If so am generating power I want it for when main grid goes down.

lousubcap

@Ozzie_Isaac - great public service information above.  You should consider a separate thread regarding solar.  Can't be as sensitive as shipping company performance since no specific outliers were mentioned.  
I'm too old to even give solar a pulse but many here could benefit from your insights. FWIW-