Sodium benzoate as a preservative in sauces?

caliking

I make a (raw) cilantro mint chutney/sauce, that we like to have on hand. The recipe is kinda eyeballed, but usually the osmolarity is high enough that it keeps well for a few months in the fridge. Every once in a while, it will grow things. 

Anyone have experience with adding a smidge of sodium benzoate as a preservative? I'm lookin' at you @lkapigian...

Legume

I have no experience or knowledge re sodium benzoate but if you post the loose recipe I will be happy to make it and enjoy it.

caliking

Ha! Credit for being the first to ask for the recipe

Here goes...

Cilantro                                 1 bunch
Mint                                      1 sprig ( or 2, if you like a bit more minty flavor)
Garlic, cloves                         4 (ish)
Chiles, Thai, green                 2-4
Lime, Persian, zest + juice     1/2 - 1        
Sugar                                     1/2 tsp
Salt, table                               to taste (about 1/2-3/4 tsp for us)

- blitz it all in the Vitamix. May need to add an ice cube or 3, to keep the temp down. Otherwise, you are on your way to mint cilantro soup. 

I don't know how to describe the goal consistency ("it should look like green chutney"). Sometimes, a wee dash of xanthan gum helps to get it just right. 

Edit: the end consistency should be relatively homogenous. You shouldn't see water/fluid separating from the mix. No biggie, though. Just stir it back in prior to use. 

Legume

Thanks!

Looks like it would be great on lamb!

lkapigian

@caliking I have never used that, but with Cilantro and Mint being towards neutral , the addition of the Lime and Salt should make it safe without the addition of anything, I would check the PH next time you make it and if <5 I would not add anything 

Legume

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

lkapigian

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

I use these, very stout lids , a bit big but they take a beating 

fishlessman

powdered citric acid from the canning section might work, i dont think you would notice a flavor change with a small amount. i use it with san marzonos instead of lemon juice sometimes and the lemon is way more pronounced

nolaegghead

I would recommend using potassium sorbate rather than sodium benzoate.   I use it to surface treat dehydrated foods that have a tendency to grow mold/fungus.  The benzoate can react with ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and release benzene.  The EU considers it safe and they are the strictest of all the food additive regulatory groups.

Legume

#benchscience

Legume

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

I use these, very stout lids , a bit big but they take a beating 

Thanks - too big for what I want and the triple nipple is freaking me out a bit.

I may try oxo or oxo knock offs, I like the flip top idea.

lkapigian

Legume said:

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

I use these, very stout lids , a bit big but they take a beating 

Thanks - too big for what I want and the triple nipple is freaking me out a bit.

I may try oxo or oxo knock offs, I like the flip top idea.

The triple "Nipple" is great when cranking out a bunch of plates, makes for a nice presentation of sauces 

Legume

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

I use these, very stout lids , a bit big but they take a beating 

Thanks - too big for what I want and the triple nipple is freaking me out a bit.

I may try oxo or oxo knock offs, I like the flip top idea.

The triple "Nipple" is great when cranking out a bunch of plates, makes for a nice presentation of sauces 

I’m trying my hand at different hot sauces and won’t be making big batches, but like a variety in the fridge.  As soon as I saw those I realized how they make sense for you with the big cooks/catering.

caliking

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

The grocery store ones are garbage. I have a random assortment of squeeze bottles bought from Amazon or restaurant supply stores. They have held up well. 

caliking

lkapigian said:

@caliking I have never used that, but with Cilantro and Mint being towards neutral , the addition of the Lime and Salt should make it safe without the addition of anything, I would check the PH next time you make it and if <5 I would not add anything 

I had not considered ph as a factor. Thanks!

lkapigian

Legume said:

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

I use these, very stout lids , a bit big but they take a beating 

Thanks - too big for what I want and the triple nipple is freaking me out a bit.

I may try oxo or oxo knock offs, I like the flip top idea.

The triple "Nipple" is great when cranking out a bunch of plates, makes for a nice presentation of sauces 

I’m trying my hand at different hot sauces and won’t be making big batches, but like a variety in the fridge.  As soon as I saw those I realized how they make sense for you with the big cooks/catering.

I use the Woozy Bottles for my hot sauce HERE

caliking

fishlessman said:

powdered citric acid from the canning section might work, i dont think you would notice a flavor change with a small amount. i use it with san marzonos instead of lemon juice sometimes and the lemon is way more pronounced

I've got a fair bit of citric acid in the pantry. hadn't considered that it would impact flavor less than the added lime juice, so its worth trying. 

caliking

nolaegghead said:

I would recommend using potassium sorbate rather than sodium benzoate.   I use it to surface treat dehydrated foods that have a tendency to grow mold/fungus.  The benzoate can react with ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and release benzene.  The EU considers it safe and they are the strictest of all the food additive regulatory groups.

Yes! I was hoping a chemist would chime in. 

To clarify, the potassium sorbate is considered safe by the EU (I figure it would be), or the dash of benzene that may react with the ascorbic acid from the lime?

caliking

Legume said:

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

lkapigian said:

Legume said:

Any recommendations for squeeze bottles?  I’m sick of the grocery store ones, they just don’t seem to hold up.

I use these, very stout lids , a bit big but they take a beating 

Thanks - too big for what I want and the triple nipple is freaking me out a bit.

I may try oxo or oxo knock offs, I like the flip top idea.

The triple "Nipple" is great when cranking out a bunch of plates, makes for a nice presentation of sauces 

I’m trying my hand at different hot sauces and won’t be making big batches, but like a variety in the fridge.  As soon as I saw those I realized how they make sense for you with the big cooks/catering.

I've made a variety of hot sauces, but they've all been lacto-fermented. No issues with keeping in the fridge for 1+ yrs. This chutney isn't fermented, or cooked, so its the only one I've occasionally had an issue with. 

Big cooks (usually eggfest type of events) were on hiatus for the pandemic, and I'm not catering... yet

caliking

Legume said:

Thanks!

Looks like it would be great on lamb!

It works as a sort of chimichurri. For lamb, I actually prefer the ruff raita sauce I've posted before. Recipe is similar, with added yogurt and sour cream. And, moar garlic

Edit: for the ruff raita - add to the above recipe, yogurt 2 cups (strained or Greek, if you want a thicker sauce), sour cream 1/4ish cup, cilantro 2 bunches, and maybe a little more sugar. Shouldn't need the xanthan gum. It has a shorter life in the fridge, but should be good for about a week or two. 

nolaegghead

caliking said:

lkapigian said:

@caliking I have never used that, but with Cilantro and Mint being towards neutral , the addition of the Lime and Salt should make it safe without the addition of anything, I would check the PH next time you make it and if <5 I would not add anything 

I had not considered ph as a factor. Thanks!

Yeast and molds (fungi) can grow fine in low pH foods.  Bacteria are not as much a problem.  If the pH is below 3.5, not much will grow but that’s pretty acidic.  

nolaegghead

caliking said:

nolaegghead said:

I would recommend using potassium sorbate rather than sodium benzoate.   I use it to surface treat dehydrated foods that have a tendency to grow mold/fungus.  The benzoate can react with ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and release benzene.  The EU considers it safe and they are the strictest of all the food additive regulatory groups.

Yes! I was hoping a chemist would chime in. 

To clarify, the potassium sorbate is considered safe by the EU (I figure it would be), or the dash of benzene that may react with the ascorbic acid from the lime?

Both are approved by the EU.  Benzoate is found in some foods naturally, it’s generally safe.  Works by increasing the acidity inside cell walls, killing the cells (of bacteria, fungi).  Sorbate is very safe and both have no taste, color or odor.  

SGH

Back in the late 80’s and very early 90’s I use to dabble a little in pyrotechnics. Sodium benzoate was an ingredient we used in whistlers.