Pie crust?

caliking

Looking for some help here. 

I want to learn how to make a fabulous pie crust. Have usually bought Mrs. Smith brand crusts, for last minute quiche, etc. but I’ve had enough of that. 

Tried a NYT Cooking recipe by Melissa Clark that was ok, but frankly not better than what I bought from the store. I refuse to believe that no grandmother to date was able to come  up with a pie crust to beat a commercially produced one. 

The NYT recipe calls for flour 1 1/4 cups (150 vs. 185ish g... that’s another issue); butter 10 T; water 2-4 T; salt. Tried one version with a vodka + water mix for a chocolate espresso pecan pie , and the crust was hard, not flaky. 

Second attempt for a quiche, using only ice cold water , was  better, but the crust was somewhat papery instead of flakey. 

Soooo... anyone care to share a recipe/tips? I have a jar of leaf lard from our hog rearing venture, , but I don’t want to waste any of it while I’m troubleshooting this. 

Spinach and cheese quiche from last night:


Tastes good. Easy breakfast for a few days. But the crust is lacking. 

nolaegghead

Nice looking quiche.   I stopped bothering with the crust, maybe that makes it more a frittata, dunno.  

There are some recipes out there that use shortening, vinegar, egg and often a bit of sugar.  Maybe play around with them and see what happens.

Sandtree

What sort of pastry are you trying to make? A quiche would normally be shortcrust but that is crumbly rather than flaky and you say you were trying to make it flaky?

You could make a quiche with puff or rough puff pastry and it will get a flaky texture but puff in particular is more effort than its worth to make yourself -v- buying premade. 

20stone

Great looking quiche.  I will send you the crust recipe from the Hoosier Mama’s cookbook, and L can give you additional tips (as she is a master at this). 

As for fat, we do straight butter, and save lard for biscuits. 

Carolina Q

I haven't baked a pie in years. But I went thru a phase where I baked fruit pies fairly frequently. The crust I settled on was one I found in a Williams-Sonoma book called Pie & Tart. Very flaky, quite good, I thought. The first few were less than stellar, but as with most things, practice...

The recipe's also online.

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/recipe/basic-pie-dough.html?cm_src=RECIPESEARCH

Careful, not too much water!

I've never baked a quiche, but I have often wondered if my Chicago deep dish crust would work for that. Takes literally 4 minutes to make, looks like this...

Recipe...
http://www.realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail.pdf

4 min Video... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=VOhOVMfiqOM
After it proofs for an hour, put it in the quiche pan and press it out to fill the pan and press it up the sides a bit. Sorta like Play Dough.

Lotta eggs to waste if it sucks though.

fishlessman

lard or butter or lard and butter.  the trick for flakey crust though is everything cold....the butter, the lard, the water, the bowl, THE BOARD YOU ROLL IT OUT ON(ICE IT DOWN).  ice down a section of granite counter or a white marble pie crust board. dont over work it, you want to see the fat lumps in the crust, overworking it warms the crust, melts the fat.  i usually just buy the crust though and deal with it not being great

caliking

Sandtree said:

What sort of pastry are you trying to make? A quiche would normally be shortcrust but that is crumbly rather than flaky and you say you were trying to make it flaky?

You could make a quiche with puff or rough puff pastry and it will get a flaky texture but puff in particular is more effort than its worth to make yourself -v- buying premade. 

i guess the texture I am looking for is somewhere between puff pastry flaky and shortcrust crumbly. I'm fine with quiche with a good pie crust for now, but maybe I'll work on a better shortcrust for quiche some time later.

Too many rabbit holes!

caliking

20stone said:

Great looking quiche.  I will send you the crust recipe from the Hoosier Mama’s cookbook, and L can give you additional tips (as she is a master at this). 

As for fat, we do straight butter, and save lard for biscuits. 

I always thought pie crust benefits from some lard in the dough. But don't have enough personal experience to validate this.

Any thoughts on European-style butter vs. regular butter? The former has less water content, and I figured the steam from regular butter may help to slightly leaven the dough as it bakes. 

caliking

fishlessman said:

lard or butter or lard and butter.  the trick for flakey crust though is everything cold....the butter, the lard, the water, the bowl, THE BOARD YOU ROLL IT OUT ON(ICE IT DOWN).  ice down a section of granite counter or a white marble pie crust board. dont over work it, you want to see the fat lumps in the crust, overworking it warms the crust, melts the fat.  i usually just buy the crust though and deal with it not being great

Using frozen butter and ice water helped keep the dough cold, but I see your point about cooling the other pieces in the process as well. I'll work on that. 

caliking

@CarolinaQ - thanks for those links. That's a mighty fine looking deep dish pie! Saved for later reference.

caliking

nolaegghead said:

Nice looking quiche.   I stopped bothering with the crust, maybe that makes it more a frittata, dunno.  

There are some recipes out there that use shortening, vinegar, egg and often a bit of sugar.  Maybe play around with them and see what happens.

Just learned about vinegar in pie crust. Regular vinegar or some other kind? I could see how apple cider vinegar would work in an apple pie crust. 

What's it do for the dough, Mr. Chemist?

northGAcock

caliking said:

Looking for some help here. 
 

Spinach and cheese quiche from last night:


Tastes good. Easy breakfast for a few days. But the crust is lacking. 

We'll have to share get together and have a Pumpkin Spice Latte at Butt Blast.

caliking

northGAcock said:

caliking said:

Looking for some help here. 
 

Spinach and cheese quiche from last night:


Tastes good. Easy breakfast for a few days. But the crust is lacking. 

We'll have to share get together and have a Pumpkin Spice Latte at Butt Blast.

For sure! I've already woken up more than once dreaming about those Bloody Marys

GATraveller

caliking said:

Sandtree said:

What sort of pastry are you trying to make? A quiche would normally be shortcrust but that is crumbly rather than flaky and you say you were trying to make it flaky?

You could make a quiche with puff or rough puff pastry and it will get a flaky texture but puff in particular is more effort than its worth to make yourself -v- buying premade. 

i guess the texture I am looking for is somewhere between puff pastry flaky and shortcrust crumbly. I'm fine with quiche with a good pie crust for now, but maybe I'll work on a better shortcrust for quiche some time later.

Too many rabbit holes!

I have my great grandmothers pie crust recipe that sounds like just what you're looking for.  As soon as someone in the house texts me a photo of the recipe card I'll forward it to you.  

DoubleEgger

PM sent 

caliking

DoubleEgger said:

PM sent 

Thanks! My grandmothers didn't cook/bake this sort of stuff, so I lack context. Running to catch up though

Carolina Q

caliking said:

@CarolinaQ - thanks for those links. That's a mighty fine looking deep dish pie! Saved for later reference.

You're welcome. Here's my original deep dish post with more complete info. Wow, almost 5 years old! Hope you try it.
https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/1167656/how-to-make-authentic-chicago-deep-dish-pizza-in-two-hours-or-less/p1

The Cen-Tex Smoker

call Janell. Hers is the best I've had. And it's made with vodka

nolaegghead

caliking said:

nolaegghead said:

Nice looking quiche.   I stopped bothering with the crust, maybe that makes it more a frittata, dunno.  

There are some recipes out there that use shortening, vinegar, egg and often a bit of sugar.  Maybe play around with them and see what happens.

Just learned about vinegar in pie crust. Regular vinegar or some other kind? I could see how apple cider vinegar would work in an apple pie crust. 

What's it do for the dough, Mr. Chemist?

Well, Mr. adolescent butt doctor....Vinegar helps prevent the formation of gluten strands that make the crust tougher, structurally.  Also will invert any sugar, make it taste sweeter, but I don't think that's why it's added.

I really don't eat much dessert and therefore don't make that much, although savory dishes do use pastry doughs, I'm not that expert on them.

But one thing to consider along these lines is using pastry flour, which has lower protein (gluten) concentrations.  Less gluten = more crumbly.

caliking

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

call Janell. Hers is the best I've had. And it's made with vodka

Trust me, y'all are on the list of brains to pick. Still in the data gathering phase of the operation. 

Funny  that caliqueen recently commented on how there were so many loaves of bread in the house. Then she found a quiche one morning. Then a new pie dish arrived yesterday.  

I think she knows what's about to go down...

caliking

Carolina Q said:

caliking said:

@CarolinaQ - thanks for those links. That's a mighty fine looking deep dish pie! Saved for later reference.

You're welcome. Here's my original deep dish post with more complete info. Wow, almost 5 years old! Hope you try it.
https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/1167656/how-to-make-authentic-chicago-deep-dish-pizza-in-two-hours-or-less/p1

Yep, I bookmarked that thread a while back. One of the best I've seen here. 

nolaegghead

You will see egg in some recipes, and I believe that helps it not disintegrate and stay together post cooking but probably at the expense of a less crunchy texture. 

caliking

@nolaegghead good intel. I just started dwelling on the role of gluten in pie dough, and hadn't considered pastry flour. 

northGAcock

caliking said:

northGAcock said:

We'll have to share get together and have a Pumpkin Spice Latte at Butt Blast.

For sure! I've already woken up more than once dreaming about those Bloody Marys

nolaegghead

northGAcock said:

caliking said:

northGAcock said:

We'll have to share get together and have a Pumpkin Spice Latte at Butt Blast.

For sure! I've already woken up more than once dreaming about those Bloody Marys

Damn, Robin....I'm diggin' your ratios.

nolaegghead

This has me thinking (and I'm sure someone has played around with this) about having total control over crust.  I have been playing around with some food science, and although I'm not gluten intolerant, I have messed around with flours that are gluten free, and used xanthan gum to basically replace/emulate the gluten's job in creating the structure that "foam" develops...for bread.  Also that structure makes all the difference in a final product that crumbles easily or has the integrity of a hockey puck.

So, not having looked but with my experience, I know other flours are used in the gluten-free world, like brown rice flour, arrow root, tapioca (careful!), etc.

All those gluten free flours make terrible bread by themselves, but with a relatively tiny amount of xanthan gum, you can basically make them emulate wheat flours with varying degrees of protein content.

I think this whole gluten thing, and how the gluten and fat are treated (keep cold, etc) are key to the characteristics of the crust.

Damn you, Ashish, for digging up more rabbit holes.

nolaegghead

btw - you can also buy pure gluten rather than use xanthan gum.

Eggcelsior

Check out Kenji’s and Stella’s recipes on Serious Eats. Both are excellent. Kenji's is your traditional pie crust. Stella's has more butter so it bakes up super flakey, like a croissant.

SmokeyPitt

I have never made one, but I thought of The Pioneer Woman for this type of thing. 
https://thepioneerwoman.com/cooking/p-p-p-pie_crust_and_its_p-p-p-perfect/?printable_recipe=11734

Note that is the printable recipe...if you want the whole story:
https://thepioneerwoman.com/cooking/p-p-p-pie_crust_and_its_p-p-p-perfect/

...scroll down 30 pages for the recipe. 

Carolina Q

Eggcelsior said:

Check out Kenji’s and Stella’s recipes on Serious Eats. Both are excellent. Kenji's is your traditional pie crust. Stella's has more butter so it bakes up super flakey, like a croissant.

I watched Stella Parks' pie dough video earlier today. For me, she's kinda hard to take, but the pie looked good.

https://www.seriouseats.com/2016/06/how-to-make-a-beautifully-flaky-pie-crust.html

The Cen-Tex Smoker

caliking said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

call Janell. Hers is the best I've had. And it's made with vodka

Trust me, y'all are on the list of brains to pick. Still in the data gathering phase of the operation. 

Funny  that caliqueen recently commented on how there were so many loaves of bread in the house. Then she found a quiche one morning. Then a new pie dish arrived yesterday.  

I think she knows what's about to go down...

Outside of me eating it, there is no "y'all" when it comes to pie crust and baking in general in this house. It's all her.