OT - Replacing Air Conditioning

DaveRichardson

Hey All - Question for the Herd...

Our 24 year-old AC unit is sputtering on its last leg; noticed on Saturday that the refrigerant line was freezing up again; oh great, and on a 3-day weekend! Had this happen a few years ago when it was a diagnosed coolant leak.  R-22 is getting $$$ to keep adding it to this old, inefficient system.  Also, last year, had the entire plenum off the air handler come apart from years of hot attic living in Georgia.  I learned a lot about mastic that evening; and I think I lost 20# sweating my butt off up there applying the mastic.

I've had enough.  I want something that I can depend on for years to come without worrying on if it will die tomorrow or next week.

My friend is a rep with Carrier and can get me a good deal.  What do you all think of Carrier?  Old unit was a Carrier.  Have had good luck with them at other living arrangements.  Currently its a 10 SEER unit; very inefficient.

What saw you?  And, as usual, thanks all for the feedback.

RRP

Don't know about Carrier, but more than half in our neighborhood of 104 homes have Lenox. I swear Lenox has an outlet close by as people keep 2 trucks busy on service calls all the TIME, winter and summer! I hear that most furnaces and A/C nowadays seem to blow out at 7 or 8 years of age! Knocking on wood I hope my 37 year old YORK doesn't "read this"! 

Gulfcoastguy

I put a Trane 17 seer two stage heat pump in back in November. It cut my electric bill to less than half. American Standard and Carrier were my second choices if the price was right and it was available in two stage. Two stage means that it usually runs longer at a slower speed and that helps control the humidity better than a single stage one. The guy who gave me the best bid normally installed Trane and the Carrier was 80 bucks more. I went with what he was more familiar with as he said it was a coin toss between the two. 

HeavyG

Upgrading from a 10 SEER unit to one of the current much more efficient units will make your payback time fairly short.

I'm a Trane kinda guy but I doubt that any of the leading players are much different qualitywise. From what I've heard over the years you just want to make sure the folks that do the install really know what they are doing is the most important part.

HeavyG

RRP said:

Don't know about Carrier, but more than half in our neighborhood of 104 homes have Lenox. I swear Lenox has an outlet close by as people keep 2 trucks busy on service calls all the TIME, winter and summer! I hear that most furnaces and A/C nowadays seem to blow out at 7 or 8 years of age! Knocking on wood I hope my 37 year old YORK doesn't "read this"! 

I've never known anyone to get less than 15-20 years out of their heat pump in the last few decades. My last Trane died after 16 years and was glad to replace it with an even more efficient Trane.

Is your York a heat pump or is it just an AC unit? At 37 years old the improvements in energy efficiency alone might cut your bill easily in half.

theyolksonyou

Paging @NPHuskerFL

RRP

HeavyG said:

RRP said:

Don't know about Carrier, but more than half in our neighborhood of 104 homes have Lenox. I swear Lenox has an outlet close by as people keep 2 trucks busy on service calls all the TIME, winter and summer! I hear that most furnaces and A/C nowadays seem to blow out at 7 or 8 years of age! Knocking on wood I hope my 37 year old YORK doesn't "read this"! 

I've never known anyone to get less than 15-20 years out of their heat pump in the last few decades. My last Trane died after 16 years and was glad to replace it with an even more efficient Trane.

Is your York a heat pump or is it just an AC unit? At 37 years old the improvements in energy efficiency alone might cut your bill easily in half.

My 37 year old York is a combo gas fired furnace and electrical A/C. I'm here in Illinois. Granted maybe the improved efficiency may save operating costs, but when I keep seeing units replaced and replaced and replaced I think "who is saving" in the long run and who IS MAKING A BUNDLE replacing these sh*tty units? 

GregW

Trane and American Standard are the same equipment. Just carry their respective brand names.

I prefer the Trane/American Standard equipment over other brands . You can spend whatever your budget allow's in terms of greater energy efficiency. I would suggest a mid line model, that way you won't be too far off in the weeds when it comes potential problems in the future. I would't want something that could have potentially very expensive service issues. With that being said I would probably not buy a unit with a variable speed compressor. Variable speed can save a lot on power bills, but if there is a problem, and it is not in warranty, all of your utility savings will be paid for repairs.

I also like the new aluminum evaporator coils that are becoming common in equipment now. The aluminum coils solve the Formicary corrosion problem that has plagued the industry for years. Trane has a really nice coil with electronic refrigerant metering (Electronic Expansion Valve) They feed the coil for maximum cooling and efficiency. 

DoubleEgger

Carrier units are good. Bryants roll off the same line and are a few bucks cheaper.  I used to work for Carrier and I have three Bryants. Don't get suckered into a high seer unit. Your existing ductwork likely can't handle the increased pressure. 

NPHuskerFL

Trane residential equipment has went to ****. I'd sooner buy Janijunk (Janitrol/Goodman).
I own Carrier for my own home.
 Commercial and Industrial Chillers Carrier is legit. Not a huge fan of Trane or York commercial products either. I'm glad I no longer do residential service. 

NPHuskerFL

DoubleEgger said:

Carrier units are good. Bryants roll off the same line and are a few bucks cheaper.  I used to work for Carrier and I have three Bryants. Don't get suckered into a high seer unit. Your existing ductwork likely can't handle the increased pressure. 

Just the opposite. Ducting in most cases needs modifications because the new higher efficiency units are very stringent when it comes to duct static pressure. Old systems could run run with no issue at 1"-1.75" static. New high-efficiency systems require a much lower total static to achieve the engineered SEER rating....in most cases static is to be below .50" total static. 
The duct system I designed & installed has a total .08" static including filtration 3 pleated filters restriction and running about 17.5 SEER and proven this using kW assessment and load calc. 

Gulfcoastguy

My Trane back in November came with a ten year manufacture's warranty. The installer warranted his labor for two years. I was having humidity problems which can lead to mold so I insisted on the two stage system. The difference between 16 seer single stage systems and the 17 seer two stage system was less than $500.

toddfb

I have a Trane 16 SEER and love it.

Lmidkiff

I've had two Carriers for 5 years with no problems handling the Texas heat! 

blind99

NPHuskerFL said:

DoubleEgger said:

Carrier units are good. Bryants roll off the same line and are a few bucks cheaper.  I used to work for Carrier and I have three Bryants. Don't get suckered into a high seer unit. Your existing ductwork likely can't handle the increased pressure. 

Just the opposite. Ducting in most cases needs modifications because the new higher efficiency units are very stringent when it comes to duct static pressure. Old systems could run run with no issue at 1"-1.75" static. New high-efficiency systems require a much lower total static to achieve the engineered SEER rating....in most cases static is to be below .50" total static. 
The duct system I designed & installed has a total .08" static including filtration 3 pleated filters restriction and running about 17.5 SEER and proven this using kW assessment and load calc. 

I read this to myself in the voice of the Swedish chef and it made a LOT more sense

HofstraJet

I had two 3.5 ton Carrier commercial units in my house and they lasted a solid 10 years (SE Florida - they run year round).  Just replaced them with two Trane 4 ton XR17 (SEER 17) two stage units. Energy bill dropped considerably (though I also changed my hot water heater for a hybrid heat pump unit at the same time, so partly due to that as well).

Very happy with the Trane units, especially the air handlers which are plastic and well insulated so they don't sweat as they are in the garage (the Carrier units were always sweating and looked nasty).

lkapigian

Its all in the install ...Manual J load calculation , Manual S equipment selection and proper commissioning to ensure installed performance is as designed .....as in,a Brisket, a crappy cook can ruin a great cut and a great cook can make " Select" seem like "Prime"

DaveRichardson

Ducting is going away for new.  Current ducting has crappy builder-grade early 1990's insulation on them, and I know its very low quality.  And, I think I said that my plenum/air-handler pretty much came apart last summer; and I had to re-seal the entire plenum one night.

I know the Carrier comes with a 10 year warranty and the dealer I am looking at is also a Egger here in South Atlanta.  I like them!!!

Gulfcoastguy

It sounds like you have made your choice. For what it's worth, I think it is a good choice also. Enjoy!

Gulfcoastguy

HofstraJet said:

I had two 3.5 ton Carrier commercial units in my house and they lasted a solid 10 years (SE Florida - they run year round).  Just replaced them with two Trane 4 ton XR17 (SEER 17) two stage units. Energy bill dropped considerably (though I also changed my hot water heater for a hybrid heat pump unit at the same time, so partly due to that as well).

Very happy with the Trane units, especially the air handlers which are plastic and well insulated so they don't sweat as they are in the garage (the Carrier units were always sweating and looked nasty).

I had a single 3 ton Trane XR17 two stage unit installed a few months ago. 1600SF single story house so it's more than adequate. When the installer wanted it to run at 70 degrees for the first night I thought I was going to freeze to death. That tell you how poorly my previous unit was doing.

My next big purchase will be a new roof, hopefully metal. That will take more load off of the attic ductwork. This retirement travel every where seems to be a myth.

DaveRichardson

Sounds good, @ gulfcoastguy. My only hang up right now is single vs 2 stage compressor. 

RRP

NPHuskerFL said:

DoubleEgger said:

Carrier units are good. Bryants roll off the same line and are a few bucks cheaper.  I used to work for Carrier and I have three Bryants. Don't get suckered into a high seer unit. Your existing ductwork likely can't handle the increased pressure. 

Just the opposite. Ducting in most cases needs modifications because the new higher efficiency units are very stringent when it comes to duct static pressure. Old systems could run run with no issue at 1"-1.75" static. New high-efficiency systems require a much lower total static to achieve the engineered SEER rating....in most cases static is to be below .50" total static. 
The duct system I designed & installed has a total .08" static including filtration 3 pleated filters restriction and running about 17.5 SEER and proven this using kW assessment and load calc. 

When the time comes...and I know it will as my 37 year old York is well beyond its expected life, but now your response scares me even more. Are you saying my 37 year old duct work will also need to be replaced throughout my house? If so how expensive is that going to be on top of the furnace and A/C?  And then why would anybody ever buy an older home based on that scare? 

Gulfcoastguy

DaveRichardson said:

Sounds good, @ gulfcoastguy. My only hang up right now is single vs 2 stage compressor. 

Why not have your potential contractors give a price on both types? 

Gulfcoastguy

RRP said:

NPHuskerFL said:

DoubleEgger said:

Carrier units are good. Bryants roll off the same line and are a few bucks cheaper.  I used to work for Carrier and I have three Bryants. Don't get suckered into a high seer unit. Your existing ductwork likely can't handle the increased pressure. 

Just the opposite. Ducting in most cases needs modifications because the new higher efficiency units are very stringent when it comes to duct static pressure. Old systems could run run with no issue at 1"-1.75" static. New high-efficiency systems require a much lower total static to achieve the engineered SEER rating....in most cases static is to be below .50" total static. 
The duct system I designed & installed has a total .08" static including filtration 3 pleated filters restriction and running about 17.5 SEER and proven this using kW assessment and load calc. 

When the time comes...and I know it will as my 37 year old York is well beyond its expected life, but now your response scares me even more. Are you saying my 37 year old duct work will also need to be replaced throughout my house? If so how expensive is that going to be on top of the furnace and A/C?  And then why would anybody ever buy an older home based on that scare? 

When I replaced my unit in November it was a GE that had been out of production since the mid 80's . I think it was original to my 1972 house. The heater portion hadn't worked in two years. Ideally I would have replaced the ductwork but the money only stretched so far. My electric bill still dropped to less than half. I keep a building repair/ upgrade by priority and a new roof is next.

RRP

Gulfcoastguy said:

RRP said:

NPHuskerFL said:

DoubleEgger said:

Carrier units are good. Bryants roll off the same line and are a few bucks cheaper.  I used to work for Carrier and I have three Bryants. Don't get suckered into a high seer unit. Your existing ductwork likely can't handle the increased pressure. 

Just the opposite. Ducting in most cases needs modifications because the new higher efficiency units are very stringent when it comes to duct static pressure. Old systems could run run with no issue at 1"-1.75" static. New high-efficiency systems require a much lower total static to achieve the engineered SEER rating....in most cases static is to be below .50" total static. 
The duct system I designed & installed has a total .08" static including filtration 3 pleated filters restriction and running about 17.5 SEER and proven this using kW assessment and load calc. 

When the time comes...and I know it will as my 37 year old York is well beyond its expected life, but now your response scares me even more. Are you saying my 37 year old duct work will also need to be replaced throughout my house? If so how expensive is that going to be on top of the furnace and A/C?  And then why would anybody ever buy an older home based on that scare? 

When I replaced my unit in November it was a GE that had been out of production since the mid 80's . I think it was original to my 1972 house. The heater portion hadn't worked in two years. Ideally I would have replaced the ductwork but the money only stretched so far. My electric bill still dropped to less than half. I keep a building repair/ upgrade by priority and a new roof is next.

LOL - if you didn't have a furnace for 2 years then obviously you really are on the gulf! My wife of 51 years of marriage would have left me less than a week into a 2 year period with no heat! 

Gulfcoastguy

No wife. I used the infra red radiant space heaters. I am about three miles from the actual Gulf of Mexico though only about a half mile from a bayou that extends from Biloxi Bay. As a side note my Boxer dog Waldo learned how to turn on the smallest space heater that I used for the computer room/library/plant seedling starting room. Just slap the top of it with his paw.

cookingdude555

The brand is not as important as the person that installs that brand.  Get a trusted person that knows what they are doing.  I do tons of AC research as my 14 year old unit has begun to scare me.  I learned how to take the cover of the evap coil and give it a good cleaning, remove the "allergy" filters that were greatly reducing air flow over the coil, and add a hard start kit to the compressor outside.  My system went from a tech telling me it all needed to be replaced to running better than it ever has (like vastly better).  This stuff isnt rocket surgery, but some of the techs that go around messing up homes with bad installs and under and over (mine) installed systems is crazy.