OT - Engineering

fishlessman

JustineCaseyFeldown said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

 It got to where I spent a major chunk of my time unscrewing the kiddies construction plans.

i can't even read half the construction drawings i get these days.  all one frigging lineweight.  everything looks the same...

i joke with a buddy too (who does the same thing i do) that we will get preliminary models of buildings, rough concept stuff (which is fine), but which has ridiculous detail exactly where it isn't needed.

like, open up a model with simple walls and ceilings, minimal structure (because it is still being designed), and yet every single sprinkler head or office chair is modeled to some ultra stupid level of detail. it's because they can right click and download a model of an office chair from a manufacturer's website, and so they do it without thinking twice.  and then copy it a hundred times.  so you get a simple concept model that is a 300meg file and 6 million polygons, all of which are from useless information.  no critical thinking.  "building misinformation management"

what is it with you building guys, i get an illustration that makes no sense and a word problem describing it i want a drawing with front, top, side views that i can build too. its almost like a lawyer drew it

Lit

I think it really depends on what you do. I work in wireless which is a newer technology and there are very few engineers over 50 and most are under 40. The older guys that I have worked with have all had to be trained because their experience is in other fields.

saluki2007

I work at a precision machine shop and we have a good mix of under and over 50.  But to your point, we are having trouble finding maintenance people.  We just had 2 retire and have not been able to find anyone to replace them.

fishlessman

saluki2007 said:

I work at a precision machine shop and we have a good mix of under and over 50.  But to your point, we are having trouble finding maintenance people.  We just had 2 retire and have not been able to find anyone to replace them.

most of my machines are ww2 era, big horizontal boring machines, vtl lathes etc,  not many under 50 can actually run them let alone repair them. i do have a cnc mazac in house, seems thats what the younger guys want to run

JustineCaseyFeldown

Eoin said:

JustineCaseyFeldown said:

Eoin said:

SciAggie said:

@Eoin I totally agree with you. I was just sharing what I observe (unfortunately).

Yes, too many arts types in charge of education!

they don't tell you what to study, fwiw.

and i make a decent living as an 'artsy' type.

It's not so much telling people what to study, it's an understanding of what is useful to employers in an engineering context and making sure that the education system provides this in a manner that is interesting to pupils so they want to do it. 

I don't necessarily agree. 

Kids around here are doing all sorts of stuff in school we never did. Science olympics, coding and robot competitions, STEM-oriented stuff

of course it may be happening elsewhere.

but I don't think i have heard of any colleges and universities actively suppressing engineering and pushing the arts

and if anything is being regularly cut in E-12, it's art and music

the artsy fartsy elite college admins aren't steering anyone away from engineering into the arts. 

Kids may have no interest in it for some reason, but interest is cultivated long before the acceptance letter arrives

fishlessman

kids taking fluffernutter degrees   then wondering why they did not get a job after graduation. parents should have slapped them and woke them up before they made their college decision/ choices

poster

johnnyp said:

I feel qualified to speak up on this.  I'm a recent graduate (May 2016) with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.  I started my first job as an engineer in Sept. 

I quickly found that I know nothing.  My education was 100% academic.  Some classes had practical labs, but they are nothing compared to actually being in the field.  To afford to go to college, I had to work full time.  So, internships were not an option for me.

In my opinion, the biggest failure in the education of new engineers is the lack of practicality associated with the education.  I can mathematically prove concepts or conduct Finite Element Analysis, but actually using science to solve problems.....big disconnect.

Ya, I know exactly what you are saying. We had a guy that had at least 90% averages and offers for placements from huge corporations often when I was taking engineering. I believe it was in our 3rd year when he asked the prof. what a bearing was? One prof. always told us we are not there to learn engineering, but learn how to learn when we leave.

I have been out of the program 14 years, I am a bit between the old school guys and the new school, so I can understand some of the newer concepts. I cannot fathom making drawings by hand vs. CAD. Quickly being able to make modifications or have a drawing of something complex, or even an entire mill, and being able to pull parts off and move things around or even animate is extremely valuable. (although CAD was only a partial class in school) Also to take a part and go from CAD to CAM and output a physical piece vs. without the use of computers can be time consuming especially the more complex stuff.

It is pretty tough to get someone right out of school that can do everything. Practical experience is needed, but there are not a ton of people that are willing to give that either.

fishlessman

poster said:

johnnyp said:

I feel qualified to speak up on this.  I'm a recent graduate (May 2016) with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.  I started my first job as an engineer in Sept. 

I quickly found that I know nothing.  My education was 100% academic.  Some classes had practical labs, but they are nothing compared to actually being in the field.  To afford to go to college, I had to work full time.  So, internships were not an option for me.

In my opinion, the biggest failure in the education of new engineers is the lack of practicality associated with the education.  I can mathematically prove concepts or conduct Finite Element Analysis, but actually using science to solve problems.....big disconnect.

Ya, I know exactly what you are saying. We had a guy that had at least 90% averages and offers for placements from huge corporations often when I was taking engineering. I believe it was in our 3rd year when he asked the prof. what a bearing was? One prof. always told us we are not there to learn engineering, but learn how to learn when we leave.

I have been out of the program 14 years, I am a bit between the old school guys and the new school, so I can understand some of the newer concepts. I cannot fathom making drawings by hand vs. CAD. Quickly being able to make modifications or have a drawing of something complex, or even an entire mill, and being able to pull parts off and move things around or even animate is extremely valuable. (although CAD was only a partial class in school) Also to take a part and go from CAD to CAM and output a physical piece vs. without the use of computers can be time consuming especially the more complex stuff.

It is pretty tough to get someone right out of school that can do everything. Practical experience is needed, but there are not a ton of people that are willing to give that either.

the cad to cam drawings are really helpful when they go to the machine shop. when they go to the fab shop its a whole nother story, im redrawing drawings for the welders all the time, sometimes on napkins, its a nightmare

westernbbq

the US produces lawyers and talk show host phony media types...but hey they are greatnat navigatimg through social media....

poster

fishlessman said:

poster said:

johnnyp said:

I feel qualified to speak up on this.  I'm a recent graduate (May 2016) with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.  I started my first job as an engineer in Sept. 

I quickly found that I know nothing.  My education was 100% academic.  Some classes had practical labs, but they are nothing compared to actually being in the field.  To afford to go to college, I had to work full time.  So, internships were not an option for me.

In my opinion, the biggest failure in the education of new engineers is the lack of practicality associated with the education.  I can mathematically prove concepts or conduct Finite Element Analysis, but actually using science to solve problems.....big disconnect.

Ya, I know exactly what you are saying. We had a guy that had at least 90% averages and offers for placements from huge corporations often when I was taking engineering. I believe it was in our 3rd year when he asked the prof. what a bearing was? One prof. always told us we are not there to learn engineering, but learn how to learn when we leave.

I have been out of the program 14 years, I am a bit between the old school guys and the new school, so I can understand some of the newer concepts. I cannot fathom making drawings by hand vs. CAD. Quickly being able to make modifications or have a drawing of something complex, or even an entire mill, and being able to pull parts off and move things around or even animate is extremely valuable. (although CAD was only a partial class in school) Also to take a part and go from CAD to CAM and output a physical piece vs. without the use of computers can be time consuming especially the more complex stuff.

It is pretty tough to get someone right out of school that can do everything. Practical experience is needed, but there are not a ton of people that are willing to give that either.

the cad to cam drawings are really helpful when they go to the machine shop. when they go to the fab shop its a whole nother story, im redrawing drawings for the welders all the time, sometimes on napkins, its a nightmare

Ya, we use the spoon feed method here, just enough info to keep them going until the next step. The machinists get pissed off with that method though. They want ever last detail, even stuff that isn't close to relevant.

SciAggie

@JustineCaseyFeldown
"and if anything is being regularly cut in E-12, it's art and music"

This is unfortunately true. Some folks think that promoting STEM means ignoring the arts. It is my experience that every one of my TARC (Team America Rocketry Challenge) teams benefits greatly from at least one team member that's devoted to the arts. Those individuals bring a dimension to the team that makes it better. 

ToTheMax

Seems like you guys are discussing skilled tradesmen and not engineering.

The company I work for is hiring engineers left and right, mostly out of college, so they could mold them and pass down information from the older generations. There is no shortage of engineers in this area (EE, ME, CE, CS, etc.), but there might be a shortage of skilled tradesmen.

I bet a lot of the new hire engineers wouldn't be able to go and fix a leak, but if you ask them to do a CAD drawing, design a prototype, etc. they're all over it.

JustineCaseyFeldown

SciAggie said:

@JustineCaseyFeldown
"and if anything is being regularly cut in E-12, it's art and music"

This is unfortunately true. Some folks think that promoting STEM means ignoring the arts. It is my experience that every one of my TARC (Team America Rocketry Challenge) teams benefits greatly from at least one team member that's devoted to the arts. Those individuals bring a dimension to the team that makes it better. 

i'd be hard pressed to explain why, but i do think the creative aspect of problem solving (as opposed to simply knowing the standard solution) benefits from an interest in the creative arts.

what i liked about architecture was that it was a blend of arts and engineering.

the one thing we learned was how to approach a problem creatively. 

nolaegghead

I've been involved in hiring a few people over the years and I'd rather hire an extremely bright, creative person with little experience over an average person with a packed resume.

I hired a person for IT who had a degree in art and just a little experience IT from using systems at the paper as a photographer.  18 years later he's probably the best IT developer we have (and our IT department is around 40 people).

fishlessman

ToTheMax said:

Seems like you guys are discussing skilled tradesmen and not engineering.

The company I work for is hiring engineers left and right, mostly out of college, so they could mold them and pass down information from the older generations. There is no shortage of engineers in this area (EE, ME, CE, CS, etc.), but there might be a shortage of skilled tradesmen.

I bet a lot of the new hire engineers wouldn't be able to go and fix a leak, but if you ask them to do a CAD drawing, design a prototype, etc. they're all over it.

the op is from the uk, from what i see from overseas, alot of the engineers are extremely knowledgeable trades people that further there trade thru engineering courses . different from our total book approach. a german engineer can fix a leak . the bosnian here has engineering certificates, can weld, runs the machines in the machine shop, has his cdl license to run the big trucks, speaks 5 languages, and will sweep the floor before he punches in on the time clock. now i did a job for a us engineer that was redesigning a wheel for the govt for 100 thousand dollars that failed miserably but that was ok, he did a hundred page report on why it did not work, pictures, videos, etc paper engineer, he designed a big wheel with 50 parts that wouldnt roll over a pencil

SciAggie

@JustineCaseyFeldown @nolaegghead As y'all know creative people often "see" the world differently - through a different lens if you will. That's a great quality in anyone that needs to be nurtured. I'm a math/science guy for sure but I passionately support the arts. Steve Jobs comes to mind - he had a vision of what consumers needed before they knew themselves. His respect for art in his products and his unique vision created a monster company.

Richard Feynman once said, "I have a friend who’s an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don’t agree with very well. He’ll hold up a flower and say “look how beautiful it is,” and I’ll agree. Then he says “I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing,” and I think that he’s kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe…

I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it’s not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there’s also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don’t understand how it subtracts."

I can't imagine a world where we ignore the arts and lose the beauty of the world around us. Sorry for drifting off topic a bit - not sure what this has to do with engineering. It just grates on me as a science educator when folks want to cut the arts budget. I realize my science students are better when they appreciate the arts.

saluki2007

fishlessman said:

saluki2007 said:

I work at a precision machine shop and we have a good mix of under and over 50.  But to your point, we are having trouble finding maintenance people.  We just had 2 retire and have not been able to find anyone to replace them.

most of my machines are ww2 era, big horizontal boring machines, vtl lathes etc,  not many under 50 can actually run them let alone repair them. i do have a cnc mazac in house, seems thats what the younger guys want to run

Our machines are newer than that.  Our oldest machine is small, for our standards, vertical mill from the late 70's.  I would agree that most of the older guys run the more traditional vertical and horizontal lathes while the younger guys run the more computer driven machines like the 5-axis and vari-axis machines.  80% of our machines I would say are Mazaks.  We just started getting into Okuma machines. 

Legume

the STEM vs arts thing is an argument that shouldn't be happening - education should be about building perspective, laying in a foundation of knowledge and understanding, and cultivating thought process.  it's all problem solving - life is problems, if you can solve them, great, if not, well, you can be someone else's arms and legs.

when I recruit, experience and education gets you a conversation because that's what's on paper that I can screen, but I look for evidence of broad perspective and ability to see detail as well as 30k foot view, flexibility in thinking and approach (avoid the linear direction-followers), evidence of work ethic, tenacity (no shoulder shruggers), creativity to go from problem to solution and of course, ability to articulate that.

this has to begin at home, parents are first and most influential teachers.

SciAggie

@Legume You're my newest hero brother.

Acn

Legume said:

the STEM vs arts thing is an argument that shouldn't be happening - education should be about building perspective, laying in a foundation of knowledge and understanding, and cultivating thought process.

This would be a great idea if schools and teachers weren't judged overwhelmingly on the basis of student results on standardized reading and math tests.  Since that is what they are judged on, schools teach reading and math - if science/social studies/arts/etc can be shoehorned into reading or math, great.  If not, at least they'll know how to take a standardized test.

fishlessman

you guys need to work in a weld shop, you hire the guy that makes it to work on mondays and the day after a paycheck or the guy that has a car, drivers license and can go pick those guys up

nolaegghead

fishlessman said:

you guys need to work in a weld shop, you hire the guy that makes it to work on mondays and the day after a paycheck or the guy that has a car, drivers license and can go pick those guys up

Maybe if you made your employee benefits package a little sweeter (zero deductable health insurance, matching 401, etc.)  you could attract a some more professional employees.....or just hire from overseas...and risk Trump climbing up yo ass..

nolaegghead

Based on forum persona/threads/posts.... who would you hire here?  (Rhetorical question)

fishlessman

nolaegghead said:

Based on forum persona/threads/posts.... who would you hire here?  (Rhetorical question)

no one   for welding you need two hands and a head, no phone for internetting

saluki2007

nolaegghead said:

fishlessman said:

you guys need to work in a weld shop, you hire the guy that makes it to work on mondays and the day after a paycheck or the guy that has a car, drivers license and can go pick those guys up

Maybe if you made your employee benefits package a little sweeter (zero deductable health insurance, matching 401, etc.)  you could attract a some more professional employees.....or just hire from overseas...and risk Trump climbing up yo ass..

Works for us.  At least 75% of our work force has been here more than 10 years.  About 50% have been here 20+ years.  We currently have 70 employees.

nolaegghead

fishlessman said:

nolaegghead said:

Based on forum persona/threads/posts.... who would you hire here?  (Rhetorical question)

no one   for welding you need two hands and a head, no phone for internetting

I'm a decent welder, but would hate to do it for a living.  I have a buddy that might just be the most talented technical welder in the city.  Learned welding exotics at Martin Marietta or some place like that.  Unfortunately, he's a completely off-the-grid guy.  Burner phone, works exclusively out of the shop in his back yard.   All the motorcycle people go to him for custom swing arm fabrication and titanium welds.

Eoin

ToTheMax said:

Seems like you guys are discussing skilled tradesmen and not engineering.

The company I work for is hiring engineers left and right, mostly out of college, so they could mold them and pass down information from the older generations. There is no shortage of engineers in this area (EE, ME, CE, CS, etc.), but there might be a shortage of skilled tradesmen.

I bet a lot of the new hire engineers wouldn't be able to go and fix a leak, but if you ask them to do a CAD drawing, design a prototype, etc. they're all over it.

The engineering business was my point I suppose, and how hard it is to get good skilled people who have practical skills. This applies to good technicians but also to engineers who only know the theory and not the practice.  My non skilled tech got fired today, so recruiting again.

HeavyG

nolaegghead said:

fishlessman said:

you guys need to work in a weld shop, you hire the guy that makes it to work on mondays and the day after a paycheck or the guy that has a car, drivers license and can go pick those guys up

Maybe if you made your employee benefits package a little sweeter (zero deductable health insurance, matching 401, etc.)  you could attract a some more professional employees.....or just hire from overseas...and risk Trump climbing up yo ass..

Trump is fine with bringing in foreign workers...as long as they're HIS foreign workers.  I mean, he applied for a few dozen more H2-B workers just a few weeks ago to work at Mar-A-Lago.

Eoin

saluki2007 said:

I work at a precision machine shop and we have a good mix of under and over 50.  But to your point, we are having trouble finding maintenance people.  We just had 2 retire and have not been able to find anyone to replace them.

Maintenance people are a problem because they have to deal with uncertainty, which tests their skills and not just their ability to learn to function in a specific environment.

Eoin

fishlessman said:

ToTheMax said:

Seems like you guys are discussing skilled tradesmen and not engineering.

The company I work for is hiring engineers left and right, mostly out of college, so they could mold them and pass down information from the older generations. There is no shortage of engineers in this area (EE, ME, CE, CS, etc.), but there might be a shortage of skilled tradesmen.

I bet a lot of the new hire engineers wouldn't be able to go and fix a leak, but if you ask them to do a CAD drawing, design a prototype, etc. they're all over it.

the op is from the uk, from what i see from overseas, alot of the engineers are extremely knowledgeable trades people that further there trade thru engineering courses . different from our total book approach.

We do value practical skills here, there's a definite stigma to engineers who can't use tools. My techs know that I don't ask them to do anything that I can't do myself because I've worked with them and even now help out with fault finding / diagnostics / how to get round a problem when they're a bit stuck or need a sounding board.