OT - Engineering

Eoin

Do you guys in the US have the same problems getting good skilled engineering staff?  Seems like they're all getting old and not being replaced by the next generation here in the UK.  I just started a new multi skilled maintenance tech last week with a good CV and he has struggled with the basics both electrically and mechanically.  This is an older guy too. Hard to find office people who have any practical skills as well, they start on a computer workstation and not in the workshop.

fishlessman

not finding tradesmen here, we have a guy thats been here for almost two years as a welder thats right out of bosnia, couldnt find one here as well rounded. a welder thats been here for about ten years, and the rest of the crews been here since the 70's.  we do engineering, metal fab, machining, applications come in from school bus drivers etc. the trades are dead. i would rather a guy work on a big drafting board where i can look at his drawing over his shoulder, ask questions, fix mistakes than draw and engineer on a computer where i cant see potential problems in advance. i get simple drawings in, say a square plate with 3 holes in it, and have to get 5 questions answered before i can build it, its insane. lots of burger flippers though.

Eoin

fishlessman said:

not finding tradesmen here, we have a guy thats been here for almost two years as a welder thats right out of bosnia, couldnt find one here as well rounded. a welder thats been here for about ten years, and the rest of the crews been here since the 70's.  we do engineering, metal fab, machining, applications come in from school bus drivers etc. the trades are dead. i would rather a guy work on a big drafting board where i can look at his drawing over his shoulder, ask questions, fix mistakes than draw and engineer on a computer where i cant see potential problems in advance. i get simple drawings in, say a square plate with 3 holes in it, and have to get 5 questions answered before i can build it, its insane. lots of burger flippers though.

Me and my service guys are all in our 50s.  I've got a younger service tech as well who has taken a lot of training but is getting there now.  The new guy is down the road tomorrow morning. Yes, easy to get burger flippers here too, but ask someone to do heavy and dirty work that needs intelligence as well and the market is thin even though the pay is very good now because of the shortage.

Ladeback69

Not sure, I do believe they are not teaching shop class anymore in most high schools so kids aren't getting exposed to it early enough to want to get into the field.  I am not an engineer, but a engineering technician or now they like to say construction manager.  I have been with my company for over 31 years and I started out as a draftsman on the board.  I have a lot of OJT from environmental, to geo technical, water and waste water design/construction and now telecom.

My company seems to still higher good people, but I work for a large engineering firm and not a manufacturing company.  I think a lot of it has to do with outsourcing and not having things made in the US as much as it was when I was a kid in the 60's.

fishlessman

our youngest guy just turned 50, its scary, the younger people dont want the dirt, and the over 50 are either finding ways to retire, or finding ways to collect. cant train either, my open policy is 5 hours practicing at a weld station wednesday night, dinner, and straight time pay to learn the trade and make more money, no takers in

SciAggie

@Ladeback69 is mostly correct. I teach physics and two scientific research and design classes at the high school level. My SRD students are great kids but they don't know which way to turn a wrench to tighten a nut. They are great at doing math worksheets but can't think mathematically.
I'm in my 50's - I grew up helping my dad and my uncles in the shop. I'm sure many of my generation did the same. Young people now often don't have that opportunity; it's not always a video game to blame although it's an issue. 
I'm finding that the kids really enjoy applying what they know and building things, they just need an opportunity. It's kind of funny that 40 years ago they had "industrial arts" class. That class slowly fell to the side as "college readiness" became the new thing. Now we are pushing STEM classes (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math). What they call STEM now we used to call Industrial Arts - it's coming back around.
I guess my point is that as the workplace is drying up of folks with practical skills there is some response. At least our school is trying to address the problem. Students headed toward engineering fields leave with some hands on skills and critical thinking skills. Those headed into trades have skills that will serve them as well. 
An interesting endnote is that our high school has always had an Ag shop class. The problem I see with them is that instead of drawing hard working students that plan on a career in agriculture, they often get "those kids" that are unable to be successful elsewhere and look for an "easy" class. The net result is that traditional Ag shop classes are watered down versions of what many of you remember from your high school experience.

Eoin

SciAggie said:

@Ladeback69 is mostly correct. I teach physics and two scientific research and design classes at the high school level. My SRD students are great kids but they don't know which way to turn a wrench to tighten a nut. They are great at doing math worksheets but can't think mathematically.
I'm in my 50's - I grew up helping my dad and my uncles in the shop. I'm sure many of my generation did the same. Young people now often don't have that opportunity; it's not always a video game to blame although it's an issue. 
I'm finding that the kids really enjoy applying what they know and building things, they just need an opportunity. It's kind of funny that 40 years ago they had "industrial arts" class. That class slowly fell to the side as "college readiness" became the new thing. Now we are pushing STEM classes (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math). What they call STEM now we used to call Industrial Arts - it's coming back around.
I guess my point is that as the workplace is drying up of folks with practical skills there is some response. At least our school is trying to address the problem. Students headed toward engineering fields leave with some hands on skills and critical thinking skills. Those headed into trades have skills that will serve them as well. 
An interesting endnote is that our high school has always had an Ag shop class. The problem I see with them is that instead of drawing hard working students that plan on a career in agriculture, they often get "those kids" that are unable to be successful elsewhere and look for an "easy" class. The net result is that traditional Ag shop classes are watered down versions of what many of you remember from your high school experience.

Shop classes should not be considered as an eaay option for non-academic kids, it should be as challenging as any other subject. I love fixing stuff, my kids aren't interested.

fishlessman

@Eoin

how do they do it in the uk, 2 or 4 year degrees?  the bosnian here did it with tons of certificate classes with 5 languages added in, machining certs welding certs, etc. work ethic is high, hard to understand him at times, he just has to relearn english as american english

JustineCaseyFeldown

buddy of mine is a plumber.  said the average age of a licensed plumber is currently 50+.

said there is almost no one coming up.

SciAggie

@Eoin I totally agree with you. I was just sharing what I observe (unfortunately).

Eoin

SciAggie said:

@Eoin I totally agree with you. I was just sharing what I observe (unfortunately).

Yes, too many arts types in charge of education!

Ladeback69

Eoin said:

SciAggie said:

@Ladeback69 is mostly correct. I teach physics and two scientific research and design classes at the high school level. My SRD students are great kids but they don't know which way to turn a wrench to tighten a nut. They are great at doing math worksheets but can't think mathematically.
I'm in my 50's - I grew up helping my dad and my uncles in the shop. I'm sure many of my generation did the same. Young people now often don't have that opportunity; it's not always a video game to blame although it's an issue. 
I'm finding that the kids really enjoy applying what they know and building things, they just need an opportunity. It's kind of funny that 40 years ago they had "industrial arts" class. That class slowly fell to the side as "college readiness" became the new thing. Now we are pushing STEM classes (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math). What they call STEM now we used to call Industrial Arts - it's coming back around.
I guess my point is that as the workplace is drying up of folks with practical skills there is some response. At least our school is trying to address the problem. Students headed toward engineering fields leave with some hands on skills and critical thinking skills. Those headed into trades have skills that will serve them as well. 
An interesting endnote is that our high school has always had an Ag shop class. The problem I see with them is that instead of drawing hard working students that plan on a career in agriculture, they often get "those kids" that are unable to be successful elsewhere and look for an "easy" class. The net result is that traditional Ag shop classes are watered down versions of what many of you remember from your high school experience.

Shop classes should not be considered as an eaay option for non-academic kids, it should be as challenging as any other subject. I love fixing stuff, my kids aren't interested.

I first learned about building and fixing things from my dad and brother, then when from my step father and step uncle who owned a lumber yard.  I was always into drawing and I liked to take things apart to see how they worked and still do.  My son is adopted, but has shown some interests at times to use tools.  I try to teach him when I can, but he is only 7 and his attention span isn't that long.  He doesn't have the Knack yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0

Eoin

fishlessman said:

@Eoin

how do they do it in the uk, 2 or 4 year degrees?  the bosnian here did it with tons of certificate classes with 5 languages added in, machining certs welding certs, etc. work ethic is high, hard to understand him at times, he just has to relearn english as american english

There are different routes in engineering. Here we have high school up to 16 where you study a wide range of subjects. Then for the next 2 years you can go to college to do something vocational or school and stay with 3 or 4 academic subjects. Both routes can feed back into a higher level vocational engineering qualification or a degree. A degree is typically 3 years. Because we specialise early, the degree gets people who are focussed from 16 so it's fairly short, but it means important decisions are made at 16 and this is quite early.

I did academic from 16 to 18 studying maths, physics and chemistry then did a 4 year degree that included a lot of work placements / shop time as well. Plus my hobby was always workshop stuff.

East Europeans have a great work ethic, they need the money and will do the jobs that we are too rich and lazy to do. Immigration has been a big issue here with the whole Brexit thing, but a lot of the pull for immigration has been the unwillingness of people here to do the hard and dirty work. When you grow up playing X Box and working on computers, manual work isn't very appealing, so you get a nice degree in a subject you like and then end up flipping burgers because there's no market for what you studied.

RRP

Many trades are feeling the same impact. Ever hear of Mike Rowe's new program?
http://profoundlydisconnected.com

JustineCaseyFeldown

Eoin said:

SciAggie said:

@Eoin I totally agree with you. I was just sharing what I observe (unfortunately).

Yes, too many arts types in charge of education!

they don't tell you what to study, fwiw.

and i make a decent living as an 'artsy' type.

Gulfcoastguy

I retired in July as a Civil Engineer with a government agency. I started working in the field at 18 in order to pay my way through college. I did every lower level job from laying pipe, surveying, pouring concrete, etc. There wasn't a thing that I ordered my technicians to do when I got licensed that I hadn't done. The last 15 years or so that I was there though I definitely was an exception. The kiddie engineers would graduate and go into design without ever seeing a construction site. It got to where I spent a major chunk of my time unscrewing the kiddies construction plans. As to our technicians we always had to train them. If they could do simple math and use microsoft office they were golden.

Little Steven

No shortage of engineers in Canada but getting anyone with practical experience is all in impossible. I thought the UK had mandatory trades experience in the engineering program. 

JustineCaseyFeldown

Gulfcoastguy said:

 It got to where I spent a major chunk of my time unscrewing the kiddies construction plans.

i can't even read half the construction drawings i get these days.  all one frigging lineweight.  everything looks the same...

i joke with a buddy too (who does the same thing i do) that we will get preliminary models of buildings, rough concept stuff (which is fine), but which has ridiculous detail exactly where it isn't needed.

like, open up a model with simple walls and ceilings, minimal structure (because it is still being designed), and yet every single sprinkler head or office chair is modeled to some ultra stupid level of detail. it's because they can right click and download a model of an office chair from a manufacturer's website, and so they do it without thinking twice.  and then copy it a hundred times.  so you get a simple concept model that is a 300meg file and 6 million polygons, all of which are from useless information.  no critical thinking.  "building misinformation management"

Gulfcoastguy

Yes I could give a lot of examples but it probably wouldn't be ethical. I won't miss the yearly lecture on ethics usually given by a lawyer.

Slabotnick

I work in the natural gas industry and work with engineers on a daily basis. Luckily in our industry it seems like there is a lot of young engineers that are drawn into the industry and there is a pretty good culture of getting mentored by seasoned experienced engineers.

In general the whole culture of Millennials is a challenge now days where everyone grew up getting trophies for showing up.

JustineCaseyFeldown

wonder who gave them those trophies

HeavyG

JustineCaseyFeldown said:

wonder who gave them those trophies

Sure couldn't be the same parents that are bitching about them.
...


I'm a retired civil engineer in the water/sewer biz. The "cub" engineers that were coming in in my last few years seemed plenty smart. All of them had their E.I.T. or got it soon after starting.

The whole point of an E.I.T. is they are an "Engineer In Training". Some had worked in the field during summer breaks. Some hadn't. That's easily corrected tho after a few years on the job. And almost all of them will get their P.E. as soon as they are eligible.

We hear a lot about kids not being interested in using tools, etc., etc. but I'm pretty optimistic that along with the rise in the "Maker" scene of the last few years and the greater availability of tech such as 3d printers, CNC routers, etc. that there will be plenty of kids being interested in tinkering/building/designing in the coming years.

While many trades do have a problem at the moment a lot of that is their own fault with the decline of apprentice programs, unions, corporate greed and other factors. One key to solving those problems tho is to not simply allow so many companies to take advantage of the various "H1-x" visa programs and simply bring in foreign workers. The same industries that are whining about the lack of skilled employees in the country need to step up and get some of their own skin in the game.

SciAggie

@HeavyG The maker movement is what got things going for me at our school. In my SRD class we use a 3D printer, CNC router, CNC plasma cutter and all the more basic power tools.Kids use microcontrollers and Raspberry Pi. I have a group of seniors that have been building and flying high power rockets for 4 years. These kids are fun to be around now because they have some real skills. They are fully immersed in the maker mindset - I just struggle to attract more students. 

nolaegghead

I had a natural affinity to mechanical/tech stuff.  My mom always tells stories about how I would disassemble appliances when I was 6.  Took a few years before I could reassemble them. 

My dad did some DIY stuff, but took his car to the shop when it had a problem.  I rebuilt my first car engine when I was 17.  I was building stuff as long as I can remember....many terrible, terrible builds...but I learned from them, and there's no substitute for learning about what you're doing.

There's nothing I'm afraid to tackle because of technology.  The new cars are computers on wheels - easier to work on IMO because we can use computers to diagnose their problems.  You just have to have the right tools for the job, and some tech manuals.  Interwebz are a great resource I didn't have when I was a young punk.

As far as young people go, I think it's the same mix as always.  Kids are a little less naive about some tech stuff than old fogies who fall for fishing scams, but people are people and you have all kinds.

Eoin

JustineCaseyFeldown said:

Eoin said:

SciAggie said:

@Eoin I totally agree with you. I was just sharing what I observe (unfortunately).

Yes, too many arts types in charge of education!

they don't tell you what to study, fwiw.

and i make a decent living as an 'artsy' type.

It's not so much telling people what to study, it's an understanding of what is useful to employers in an engineering context and making sure that the education system provides this in a manner that is interesting to pupils so they want to do it. 

Eoin

RRP said:

Many trades are feeling the same impact. Ever hear of Mike Rowe's new program?
http://profoundlydisconnected.com

That's interesting.  The pressure here has been for more and more people to study at university and get a degree - over 50% going through further education.  This has created a surplus of degree holders over job vacancies (or at least holders of useful degrees), while vacancies for skilled manual workers are hard to fill. People with degrees end up working in low paid service jobs and could have been earning a lot more if they had followed a "less prestigious" educational path.

johnnyp

I feel qualified to speak up on this.  I'm a recent graduate (May 2016) with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.  I started my first job as an engineer in Sept. 

I quickly found that I know nothing.  My education was 100% academic.  Some classes had practical labs, but they are nothing compared to actually being in the field.  To afford to go to college, I had to work full time.  So, internships were not an option for me.

In my opinion, the biggest failure in the education of new engineers is the lack of practicality associated with the education.  I can mathematically prove concepts or conduct Finite Element Analysis, but actually using science to solve problems.....big disconnect.

bigalsworth

Little Steven said:

No shortage of engineers in Canada but getting anyone with practical experience is all in impossible. I thought the UK had mandatory trades experience in the engineering program. 

Particularly out east I imagine, but the Alberta vacuum has less suction now so maybe that will change?  

billt01

Ladeback69 said:

Not sure, I do believe they are not teaching shop class anymore in most high schools so kids aren't getting exposed to it early enough to want to get into the field.  I am not an engineer, but a engineering technician or now they like to say construction manager.  I have been with my company for over 31 years and I started out as a draftsman on the board.  I have a lot of OJT from environmental, to geo technical, water and waste water design/construction and now telecom.

My company seems to still higher good people, but I work for a large engineering firm and not a manufacturing company.  I think a lot of it has to do with outsourcing and not having things made in the US as much as it was when I was a kid in the 60's.

My grandfather was Western Electric, my dad was BellSouth then Lucent Technologies, and now I am in the field..

its changed a lot in the past 10 years...

billt01

johnnyp said:

I feel qualified to speak up on this.  I'm a recent graduate (May 2016) with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.  I started my first job as an engineer in Sept. 

I quickly found that I know nothing.  My education was 100% academic.  Some classes had practical labs, but they are nothing compared to actually being in the field.  To afford to go to college, I had to work full time.  So, internships were not an option for me.

In my opinion, the biggest failure in the education of new engineers is the lack of practicality associated with the education.  I can mathematically prove concepts or conduct Finite Element Analysis, but actually using science to solve problems.....big disconnect.

when learning in a lab, the lab is a controlled environment....the good engineers come up with a solution while the environment is failing, people in a state of panic and yelling, and the engineers hair is on fire...  

fishlessman

johnnyp said:

I feel qualified to speak up on this.  I'm a recent graduate (May 2016) with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering.  I started my first job as an engineer in Sept. 

I quickly found that I know nothing.  M y education was 100% academic.  Some classes had practical labs, but they are nothing compared to actually being in the field.  To afford to go to college, I had to work full time.  So, internships were not an option for me.

In my opinion, the biggest failure in the education of new engineers is the lack of practicality associated with the education.  I can mathematically prove concepts or conduct Finite Element Analysis, but actually using science to solve problems.....big disconnect.

dont worry, eventually you will forget about finite element analysis and figure out how to design and build things if that doesnt happen you can always teach i had to open that book up lately because the columns in my building had rotted out and the insurance company brought in an engineer. the 4 x 4 inch wooden columns needed to be replaced with a 12 x 12 square steel tube with 1/2 inch wall and sit on a 4 foot square pad 3 foot deep the little wood column worked for 120 years, i re-engineered that for him, waiting for results