Friday.....yaaaawnnnnn

HeavyG

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

Dyal_SC

Just had some after-midnight tacos.  Pulled some sausage gravy outta the freezer for tomorrow morning's breakfast too.  This glorious physique gotsta be maintained appropriately after all ...   

Sardonicus

GATraveller said:

The weirdest thing about that picture?  It is not Photoshopped!

Creepy.

Ozzie_Isaac

Dyal_SC said:

Just had some after-midnight tacos.  Pulled some sausage gravy outta the freezer for tomorrow morning's breakfast too.  This glorious physique gotsta be maintained appropriately after all ...   

Glad you are committed to maintaining your physique.

Sardonicus

 

The weirdest thing about that picture?  It is not Photoshopped!

Creepy.

pgprescott

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

On this I totally agree. As the left likes to say, "a race to the bottom". Unfortunately, it is the states constitutional right to do this sort of thing and it is going nowhere. Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal. Every day after is to the good for them. What is offensive is the retail giants running small businesses out of business using tax incentives. I find this much more aggregius than a mfg getting the dough. It's not a net gain IMO when you swap small business jobs for big box jobs. I love when Walmart gets their picture in the paper for donating $500. Hell, they prolly made $1000000 that week alone on tax breaks in that store? Ha ha ha 

YEMTrey

Thanks.  Nice morning read with my coffee.

theyolksonyou

YEMTrey said:

Thanks.  Nice morning read with my coffee.

I was just sleepy and look what happened. 

gmac

Is it worth going back through the 6 pages I missed?  

pgprescott

gmac said:

Is it worth going back through the 6 pages I missed?  

No

gmac

pgprescott said:

gmac said:

Is it worth going back through the 6 pages I missed?  

No

Thanks. 

HeavyG

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

pgprescott

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

Yeah. It will take longer. Thought it was 6-7 mill. Either way your right about the time. But it will be a +, no question. Right?

HeavyG

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

Yeah. It will take longer. Thought it was 6-7 mill. Either way your right about the time. But it will be a +, no question. Right?

Maybe. Doubtful. Who knows what will happen.

The state of Indiana offered $7mil, the Indiana Economic Development Corp  offered another $5mil, there were additional $1mil workforce training grants and $1mil tax credits. There were apparently other items not yet made public since there has not been a final deal. So at least $13mil+

Before the deal Gov. Pence had reached an agreement with Carrier back in the Spring of this year for Carrier to repay the state and city $1.5mil+/- in incentives due to unmet goals. I'm assuming that money will not be repaid. 

Since the deal has not been finalized we have no idea what the final welfare numbers will be. No idea what "escape clauses" will be in the deal.

pgprescott

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

Yeah. It will take longer. Thought it was 6-7 mill. Either way your right about the time. But it will be a +, no question. Right?

Maybe. Doubtful. Who knows what will happen.

The state of Indiana offered $7mil, the Indiana Economic Development Corp  offered another $5mil, there were additional $1mil workforce training grants and $1mil tax credits. There were apparently other items not yet made public since there has not been a final deal. So at least $13mil+

Before the deal Gov. Pence had reached an agreement with Carrier back in the Spring of this year for Carrier to repay the state and city $1.5mil+/- in incentives due to unmet goals. I'm assuming that money will not be repaid. 

Since the deal has not been finalized we have no idea what the final welfare numbers will be. No idea what "escape clauses" will be in the deal.

I think it is over a mill or week in payroll directly. This does not include ancillary business. Anyone would make that deal 100 out of 10 times. Only a fool would let that leave. 

nolaegghead

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

Yeah. It will take longer. Thought it was 6-7 mill. Either way your right about the time. But it will be a +, no question. Right?

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21711314-president-elect-has-new-approach-dealing-corporate-america-it-not-all-good

nolaegghead

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-trumps-carrier-deal-isnt-the-way-to-save-u-s-jobs/

gmac

I'm in a brewery. This could get ugly. 

HeavyG

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

Yeah. It will take longer. Thought it was 6-7 mill. Either way your right about the time. But it will be a +, no question. Right?

Maybe. Doubtful. Who knows what will happen.

The state of Indiana offered $7mil, the Indiana Economic Development Corp  offered another $5mil, there were additional $1mil workforce training grants and $1mil tax credits. There were apparently other items not yet made public since there has not been a final deal. So at least $13mil+

Before the deal Gov. Pence had reached an agreement with Carrier back in the Spring of this year for Carrier to repay the state and city $1.5mil+/- in incentives due to unmet goals. I'm assuming that money will not be repaid. 

Since the deal has not been finalized we have no idea what the final welfare numbers will be. No idea what "escape clauses" will be in the deal.

I think it is over a mill or week in payroll directly. This does not include ancillary business. Anyone would make that deal 100 out of 10 times. Only a fool would let that leave. 

Great - then we should get taxpayers to subsidize the jobs/income of all workers then.

That's pretty leftist/progressive thinking there - good for you!

pgprescott

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

HeavyG said:

Corporate welfare in the form of "economic incentives" is a pile of doo. They're about as effective as the welfare given to billionaire sports team owners when they blackmail the citizens of a city to pay for a new stadium/ballpark.

They've become an unfortunate part of the tactics every state/city uses to play off against one another and every company knows this and use that to their advantage.

My state - Virginia - just released an audit of the 20 year old Virginia Economic Development Partnership program and the results were pretty dismal. So much money spent for so little return and so much money that was supposed to have been returned to the state when performance goals weren't met but was never collected.

...Fwiw, it will take about 2 weeks for Indiana to get back its  money on the Carrier deal...

I'd like to see the math on how Indiana is getting back $13,000,000+ in two weeks in their Carrier deal.

Yeah. It will take longer. Thought it was 6-7 mill. Either way your right about the time. But it will be a +, no question. Right?

Maybe. Doubtful. Who knows what will happen.

The state of Indiana offered $7mil, the Indiana Economic Development Corp  offered another $5mil, there were additional $1mil workforce training grants and $1mil tax credits. There were apparently other items not yet made public since there has not been a final deal. So at least $13mil+

Before the deal Gov. Pence had reached an agreement with Carrier back in the Spring of this year for Carrier to repay the state and city $1.5mil+/- in incentives due to unmet goals. I'm assuming that money will not be repaid. 

Since the deal has not been finalized we have no idea what the final welfare numbers will be. No idea what "escape clauses" will be in the deal.

I think it is over a mill or week in payroll directly. This does not include ancillary business. Anyone would make that deal 100 out of 10 times. Only a fool would let that leave. 

Great - then we should get taxpayers to subsidize the jobs/income of all workers then.

That's pretty leftist/progressive thinking there - good for you!

We likely already do. I would be for a change to the constitution to prevent all of this. You?

pgprescott

If @HeavyG and @nolaegghead want to argue that they wouldn't make the same deal, go ahead. It's moronic. Choice A: no jobs. Choice B: 1100 jobs. Idiots!

GATraveller

nolaegghead

pgprescott said:

If @HeavyG and @nolaegghead want to argue that they wouldn't make the same deal, go ahead. It's moronic. Choice A: no jobs. Choice B: 1100 jobs. Idiots!

Dude, I think we all try to follow some sort of civil decorum here (hint, also helps your argument).  Name calling isn't helping your argument.  What say you about The Economist's article?  I know they're probably not down to your journalistic standards (hacks, right!?), but try to be objective.

pgprescott

nolaegghead said:

pgprescott said:

If @HeavyG and @nolaegghead want to argue that they wouldn't make the same deal, go ahead. It's moronic. Choice A: no jobs. Choice B: 1100 jobs. Idiots!

Dude, I think we all try to follow some sort of civil decorum here (hint, also helps your argument).  Name calling isn't helping your argument.  What say you about The Economist's article?  I know they're probably not down to your journalistic standards (hacks, right!?), but try to be objective.

Sorry 

HeavyG

pgprescott said:

If @HeavyG and @nolaegghead want to argue that they wouldn't make the same deal, go ahead. It's moronic. Choice A: no jobs. Choice B: 1100 jobs. Idiots!

I wouldn't have made that deal. I'm opposed to those sort of shenanigans/blackmail as a matter of public policy.

Also, it isn't 1100 jobs at Carrier being saved it's less than 800. And I'm betting that those jobs too will be gone before the end of Trumps only term.

Also, also, a company just down the road from Carrier is shutting down its plant and moving 300 jobs to Mexico. Where's their bribe money?

pgprescott

@nolaegghead are you suggesting you would not have made the deal? 

EGGjlmh

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

If @HeavyG and @nolaegghead want to argue that they wouldn't make the same deal, go ahead. It's moronic. Choice A: no jobs. Choice B: 1100 jobs. Idiots!

I wouldn't have made that deal. I'm opposed to those sort of shenanigans/blackmail as a matter of public policy.

Also, it isn't 1100 jobs at Carrier being saved it's less than 800. And I'm betting that those jobs too will be gone before the end of Trumps only term.

Also, also, a company just down the road from Carrier is shutting down its plant and moving 300 jobs to Mexico. Where's their bribe money?

Before the end of Trumps only term???

Sorry to butt in here but I have noticed that many people, obviously including yourself, will not even give Mr. Trump a chance.  There is something very wrong with that, and you should want him to succeed.  (yes I know, you will reply with "of coarse I want him to succeed.")

pgprescott

This just in! @nolaegghead is not in favor of saving the jobs at Carrier. Cost too much?  It's better to just let them leave and have no jobs, no houses, no taxes on the income, no ancillary jobs. He read an article! 

nolaegghead

As president, I wouldn't meddle in tax breaks at a state level.  States have their sovereignty with state taxes, and I wouldn't want to meddle in that.  I'd work with policy at a federal level, as the prez is a federal level job. 

Am I happy 800 people got to keep their jobs?   Sure. 

Are suckers going who don't understand the larger picture or the magnitude (or lack thereof) of numbers going to gush over this, like it's just solved a larger problem without causing an even larger one?  Case closed.  (hint - you).

pgprescott

HeavyG said:

pgprescott said:

If @HeavyG and @nolaegghead want to argue that they wouldn't make the same deal, go ahead. It's moronic. Choice A: no jobs. Choice B: 1100 jobs. Idiots!

I wouldn't have made that deal. I'm opposed to those sort of shenanigans/blackmail as a matter of public policy.

Also, it isn't 1100 jobs at Carrier being saved it's less than 800. And I'm betting that those jobs too will be gone before the end of Trumps only term.

Also, also, a company just down the road from Carrier is shutting down its plant and moving 300 jobs to Mexico. Where's their bribe money?

Let's stop the shenanigans then. No more fed funds for education. No more for clean energy. No more for medical research no more for energy exploration no more for agriculture. Yada yada yada. Let's have the govt stick to strictly their core duties at all levels. No more social engineering etc. While I can understand the bad taste in the mouth, the deal is a no brainer and it's a net win.