sous vide vs hot tub

blind99

so as not to continue to derail @caliking 's nice roast thread -

hot tub isn't sous vide "cooking," and I'm not sure anyone would say it improves tenderness.  it's like doing the first part of a reverse sear in the sink, or hot tub, or wherever.  works great.  yes, you can sous vide cook meat at lower temps, like < 120, but it takes hours for tenderness to improve and I'm not sure anyone likes the idea of holding raw beef at 115 for hours.

the real sous vide "magic" happens in the 130-140 range, over times like 6+ hours.  collagenase is active, but muscle shrinkage isn't terrible, plus pathogens are not only not multiplying but are being killed. 

one of Baldwin's references:

At sous vide cooking temperatures between 55 °C/130 °F and 60 °C/140 °F, many of the enzymes have been denatured but some of the collagenases are active and can significantly increase tenderness after about 6 h (Tornberg, 2005).

Manvsmolar

hmmm that sounds interesting. I cooked a ribeye at 135 for 90 minutes and well it was a little tough. I might be willing to buy a cheap steak and try this out.

HeavyG

Manvsmolar said:

hmmm that sounds interesting. I cooked a ribeye at 135 for 90 minutes and well it was a little tough. I might be willing to buy a cheap steak and try this out.

Time in the hot tub will eventually affect "tenderness" and that can be good or bad depending upon what you are wanting to achieve. You might find this interesting in regards to steak:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/06/food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-steak.html#time

fishlessman

HeavyG said:

Manvsmolar said:

hmmm that sounds interesting. I cooked a ribeye at 135 for 90 minutes and well it was a little tough. I might be willing to buy a cheap steak and try this out.

Time in the hot tub will eventually affect "tenderness" and that can be good or bad depending upon what you are wanting to achieve. You might find this interesting in regards to steak:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/06/food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-steak.html#time

alot of good info in there especially about different steaks with different  doneness. people look at me strange when i start talking about say ny strips are better at 123 degrees internal and ribeyes i cook too 127. tiny differences that mean alot to me

Focker

Whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes!
Let's back up the short bus.
The Baldwin link is nice, but that doesn't pertain to what I was questioning, it's blown by about 30 degrees.

Before my character and intelligence were ridiculed and questioned, we were discussing hot tubbing, which is essentially a controlled environment (not as controlled as SV per say, water bath, but it is still controlled..let's say within 10 degrees, with frequent water changes).

A water bath, is a water bath, is a water bath.

There are several misconceptions with SV.  Under vacuum being the top one IMO.  Sous vide is just a fancy French name for a water bath.  

Multiple reputable sources say, things start to happen at lower temps, around 90 odd degrees.  Since we are all about analogies, I'll share a couple.  Place a piece of heritage lard in the palm of your hand and wait, not long, and it will liquify.  

Now look at the cold smoke high end threshold, oh, of around 75 degrees.  Hell we can up to 90 here too.  You are starting the cooking process venturing past this point.  How does that controlled environment differ, than an efficient water bath?

My other question(s), what is the starting point, both time and temp, where it is no longer called hot tubbing, but is considered SV?

All I was getting at, is there's a little more going on than just taking the chill off at 120 degrees, for 45 min.

You can call me a fvcking idiot, chastise me for following a science foodie blogger Kenji, question my ability to think for myself, for listening to what well known and respected, professionally and classically trained, chefs think.  I tend to gravitate towards knowledge, science.  Maybe that is subconsiously engrained from being involved in an evidence based profession.  I dunno.  But I am equally interested in the art, and the hows and whys, we home cooks operate.  I tend to have some experience in places through the years, but I am no self-proclaimed pro.  I may be direct, abrasive at times, but aside from the political threads (which do not count IMO), I have never resorted to the JIC know-it-all-I'm-the-smartest-and-you're-unfixable-stoopid weak mentality, gets old after a while. 

A few of the guys here, Ron, Dylan, Brent, Cali, to name a few, are quick to pick it up, and see it for what it is.  I am laughing all the time, even at work.  I'm laughing as I type this.

If my decison to toss a bottle of rub in the trash, follow a popular foodie blogger, link professionally trained chefs, use Shun and Kershaw knives, alters your life that much.....I AM TRULY SORRY.

Life is too short, unfortunately, get reminded of this every other day.  And I'll be laughing, taking my last breath on this earth.

This fvcking idiot, Richard, is done rambling.
Now carry on.

nolaegghead

I put my bain-marie under a strong vacuum, and lo and behold, all the water evaporated.  What am I doing wrong?

Lit

Focker said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes!
Let's back up the short bus.
The Baldwin link is nice, but that doesn't pertain to what I was questioning, it's blown by about 30 degrees.

Before my character and intelligence were ridiculed and questioned, we were discussing hot tubbing, which is essentially a controlled environment (not as controlled as SV per say, water bath, but it is still controlled..let's say within 10 degrees, with frequent water changes).

A water bath, is a water bath, is a water bath.

There are several misconceptions with SV.  Under vacuum being the top one IMO.  Sous vide is just a fancy French name for a water bath.  

Multiple reputable sources say, things start to happen at lower temps, around 90 odd degrees.  Since we are all about analogies, I'll share a couple.  Place a piece of heritage lard in the palm of your hand and wait, not long, and it will liquify.  

Now look at the cold smoke high end threshold, oh, of around 75 degrees.  Hell we can up to 90 here too.  You are starting the cooking process venturing past this point.  How does that controlled environment differ, than an efficient water bath?

My other question(s), what is the starting point, both time and temp, where it is no longer called hot tubbing, but is considered SV?

All I was getting at, is there's a little more going on than just taking the chill off at 120 degrees, for 45 min.

You can call me a fvcking idiot, chastise me for following a science foodie blogger Kenji, question my ability to think for myself, for listening to what well known and respected, professionally and classically trained, chefs think.  I tend to gravitate towards knowledge, science.  Maybe that is subconsiously engrained from being involved in an evidence based profession.  I dunno.  But I am equally interested in the art, and the hows and whys, we home cooks operate.  I tend to have some experience in places through the years, but I am no self-proclaimed pro.  I may be direct, abrasive at times, but aside from the political threads (which do not count IMO), I have never resorted to the JIC know-it-all-I'm-the-smartest-and-you're-unfixable-stoopid weak mentality, gets old after a while. 

A few of the guys here, Ron, Dylan, Brent, Cali, to name a few, are quick to pick it up, and see it for what it is.  I am laughing all the time, even at work.  I'm laughing as I type this.

If my decison to toss a bottle of rub in the trash, follow a popular foodie blogger, link professionally trained chefs, use Shun and Kershaw knives, alters your life that much.....I AM TRULY SORRY.

Life is too short, unfortunately, get reminded of this every other day.  And I'll be laughing, taking my last breath on this earth.

This fvcking idiot, Richard, is done rambling.
Now carry on.

I think I missed something?

chadpsualum

nolaegghead said:

I put my bain-marie under a strong vacuum, and lo and behold, all the water evaporated.  What am I doing wrong?

You need to do that in 'cooler' climate.  If you're pulling 0.5 Torr you need to be colder than -40F to keep water in the liquid phase.  Geez.

nolaegghead

It was sublimating.

chadpsualum

nolaegghead said:

It was sublimating.

Maybe you just need to add a condenser and reflux system.

Foghorn

OK.  Let me see if I understand things - and/or can help with some definitions.

Hot tubbing is using warm water to get the meat temp to rise to a desired temp such that shortly thereafter one can sear it and get a the desired internal doneness and external crust/sear.  In this way it is just like a reverse sear on the grill.

Sous vide cooking is using water to raise the temp of meat to a target temp and then have it DWELL for a specified amount of time at that temperature to get additional benefits from that temperature (breakdown of fats, proteins, etc. 

Clearly, if I throw some steaks in a ziplock in water in my sink and get them to 120 degrees and leave them there for a little while until it is time to grill them I'm potentially crossing from "hot tubbing" to "sous vide" but unless I specifically plan to do it for a specified amount of time to achieve some desired effect, I'm going to call it "hot tubbing". 

Is that about right?

fishlessman

according to my anova i can sous vide as low as 77 f 

HofstraJet

Sous vide means under vacuum and the vacuum is an important part of real sous vide cooking. The term has come to cover a wide range of cooking methods using hot water. Dissecting them here to determine a difference between the terms sous vide and hot tubbing appears to be a pointless exercise.

Focker

Oh dear.

nolaegghead

While sous vide literally translates to "under vacuum", stuff in bags, while a vacuum can be used to remove the air, is not under any vacuum once it is sealed and physical vacuum doesn't serve any meaningful function in the process other than to initially remove air to get better heat conduction.

fishlessman

nolaegghead said:

While sous vide literally translates to "under vacuum", stuff in bags, while a vacuum can be used to remove the air, is not under any vacuum once it is sealed and physical vacuum doesn't serve any meaningful function in the process other than to initially remove air to get better heat conduction.

this concerned me with the first cook, as the meat shrinks theres some space in the bag that develops, its not like air got in there during the cook

Focker

fishlessman said:

according to my anova i can sous vide as low as 77 f 

LOL, after you're extensive research, we've got the min temp....tank you.

All we need now, is time.

nolaegghead

That is a combination of out-gassing from the food, possibly the vapor pressure of water, alcohols and the like, gas from chemical and biological activity.  or you didn't seal the damn bag.

nolaegghead

fishlessman said:

nolaegghead said:

While sous vide literally translates to "under vacuum", stuff in bags, while a vacuum can be used to remove the air, is not under any vacuum once it is sealed and physical vacuum doesn't serve any meaningful function in the process other than to initially remove air to get better heat conduction.

this concerned me with the first cook, as the meat shrinks theres some space in the bag that develops, its not like air got in there during the cook

That is impossible, unless magic is real.  who knows, could be...

nolaegghead

nolaegghead said:

fishlessman said:

nolaegghead said:

While sous vide literally translates to "under vacuum", stuff in bags, while a vacuum can be used to remove the air, is not under any vacuum once it is sealed and physical vacuum doesn't serve any meaningful function in the process other than to initially remove air to get better heat conduction.

this concerned me with the first cook, as the meat shrinks theres some space in the bag that develops, its not like air got in there during the cook

That is impossible, unless magic is real.  who knows, could be...

Oh, I got it....you were just pulling our legs.  Touche'!

blind99

nolaegghead said:

I put my bain-marie under a strong vacuum, and lo and behold, all the water evaporated.  What am I doing wrong?

you have to keep the muppet in the tank.  quite tricky actually.

@foghorn sounds right to me!

fishlessman

nolaegghead said:

That is a combination of out-gassing from the food, possibly the vapor pressure of water, alcohols and the like, gas from chemical and biological activity.  or you didn't seal the damn bag.

thats what i assumed outgassing or maybe a small pocket of air in the rolled up lamb leg, or the meat possibly shrinking. ive only seen it that one time with a rolled up boneless leg

tarheelmatt

Question. Can I use a clumpy rub while SV or hot tub? Asking for a friend. TIA

Focker

tarheelmatt said:

Question. Can I use a clumpy rub while SV or hot tub? Asking for a friend. TIA

If you like clumps in your hot tub, all good.  
Whatever blows your hair back.
Don't ask me to climb in though.

Interesting declumping technique, the water bath may help break down the applied clumps.
Would be much easier than the shakeweight method.  

nolaegghead

tarheelmatt said:

Question. Can I use a clumpy rub while SV or hot tub? Asking for a friend. TIA

Tell your "friend" that he/she did not have enough anti-caking additives in their clumpy rub.  Some of these additives would have helped:

    341 tricalcium phosphate
    460(ii) powdered cellulose
    470b magnesium stearate
    500 sodium bicarbonate
    535 sodium ferrocyanide
    536 potassium ferrocyanide
    538 calcium ferrocyanide
    542 bone phosphate
    550 sodium silicate
    551 silicon dioxide
    552 calcium silicate
    553a magnesium trisilicate
    553b talcum powder
    554 sodium aluminosilicate
    555 potassium aluminium silicate
    556 calcium aluminosilicate
    558 bentonite
    559 aluminium silicate
    570 stearic acid
    900 polydimethylsiloxane

HeavyG

nolaegghead said:

While sous vide literally translates to "under vacuum", stuff in bags, while a vacuum can be used to remove the air, is not under any vacuum once it is sealed and physical vacuum doesn't serve any meaningful function in the process other than to initially remove air to get better heat conduction.

So the vacuum doesn't serve any purpose other than the purpose it was intended to serve.

Got it!

Foghorn

Focker said:

tarheelmatt said:

Question. Can I use a clumpy rub while SV or hot tub? Asking for a friend. TIA

If you like clumps in your hot tub, all good.  
Whatever blows your hair back.
Don't ask me to climb in though.

Interesting declumping technique, the water bath may help break down the applied clumps.
Would be much easier than the shakeweight method.  

Yeah but it doesn't burn as many calories. 

Focker

Foghorn said:

Focker said:

tarheelmatt said:

Question. Can I use a clumpy rub while SV or hot tub? Asking for a friend. TIA

If you like clumps in your hot tub, all good.  
Whatever blows your hair back.
Don't ask me to climb in though.

Interesting declumping technique, the water bath may help break down the applied clumps.
Would be much easier than the shakeweight method.  

Yeah but it doesn't burn as many calories. 

Hahahahahahaha
We need to keep this thread in the hot tub 24 more hours, until we hit Sous Vide Friday, when the enzyme activity runs rampant.

Hans61

One time I said hot tubing is like sous vide in a thread - (I believe in context of steak) and I had a bunch of folks correcting me... I agree with you a water bath is a water bath. Hot tubing a steak to 120 degrees is more like sous vide than sitting it on the counter for an hour.

theyolksonyou

Hot tub butternut squash for four hours at 183 and see how hat works for ya. Or sweet potatoes over night @150 or bacon overnight at 133. 

Hans61

Well some one wise on the forum said there's over lap...and the point of precise temp over hours I concede - but a bath is still a bath as @focker correctly stated.

 It's the "temp regulator" stick that's differentiates hot tub from sous vide I think.