Knife sharpeners

Lit

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

hondabbq said:

So every classically trained chef is doing it all wrong?

A chef is using his knife all day every day so keeping it polished and razor sharp is not what they are going for they are usually going for just sharp enough to use.

Categorically, quite the opposite. 

Can you please expand on this?

fishlessman

this is the stone i have, 1200 mesh is 1800 grit. paper thin results from a cheap 60 something year old knife
http://www.cutleryshoppe.com/dmtd12ef-wb12dia-sharpbenchstonewmagnabase-extra-finefine.aspx

if you want to keep sharp knives sharp never put them in the sink, drawer, knife block. rinse and hang them on a mag strip and use an end grain board

DeltaNu1142

Lit said:

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

hondabbq said:

So every classically trained chef is doing it all wrong?

A chef is using his knife all day every day so keeping it polished and razor sharp is not what they are going for they are usually going for just sharp enough to use.

Categorically, quite the opposite. 

Can you please expand on this?

I don't know a professional chef that wants a knife "just sharp enough to use." I also don't know a professional chef that doesn't take care to make sure their knives are as sharp as humanly achievable.

I wasn't prepared to expand. I didn't think I'd have to. I'm not a chef, and I'm not here to grandstand, but a few of my friends are chefs you may have seen (I understand that's not necessarily saying much, as you can pretty much find ten chefs on TV at any given hour of the day). I have a mid-range knife block full of things that I keep "just sharp enough to use," which may or may not be up to the standards of folks here... but they are certainly not up to the standard of any professional chef that didn't wander off the street into my kitchen.

gdenby

fishlessman said:

this is the stone i have, 1200 mesh is 1800 grit. paper thin results from a cheap 60 something year old knife
http://www.cutleryshoppe.com/dmtd12ef-wb12dia-sharpbenchstonewmagnabase-extra-finefine.asp

if you want to keep sharp knives sharp never put them in the sink, drawer, knife block. rinse and hang them on a mag strip and use an end grain board

Geez, I'm starting to feel old. My standby chef knife is 41 years now.

Do you use one of the blade aligner guides w. that? As I mentioned up thread, I can't hold a steady angle over the length of the blade. It doesn't make much dif. what grit I go to if working by touch, the bevel angle is all over the place.

As far as keeping them sharp, the stand by was a wedding present. 2 weeks in marriage, my wife tossed it into the sink, and snapped the tip off. Grin and bear it. Didn't have a knife block, never heard of a mag strip back then, so it went into the drawer, tho' in its cardboard sleeve till that fell apart.

It is a Sabatier/Hoffritz. Hoffritz is still part of the company, but now only makes steel tools. The particular knife appears to have be a limited run of high quality stainless. Prone to chipping, but can have a razor edge, and doesn't corrode.. Takes more care than some of my newer knives, but performs nearly as well as the best.

Rzeancak

i also have the Ken Onion and its for real>

HeavyG

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

hondabbq said:

So every classically trained chef is doing it all wrong?

A chef is using his knife all day every day so keeping it polished and razor sharp is not what they are going for they are usually going for just sharp enough to use.

Categorically, quite the opposite. 

Can you please expand on this?

I don't know a professional chef that wants a knife "just sharp enough to use." I also don't know a professional chef that doesn't take care to make sure their knives are as sharp as humanly achievable.

I wasn't prepared to expand. I didn't think I'd have to. I'm not a chef, and I'm not here to grandstand, but a few of my friends are chefs you may have seen (I understand that's not necessarily saying much, as you can pretty much find ten chefs on TV at any given hour of the day). I have a mid-range knife block full of things that I keep "just sharp enough to use," which may or may not be up to the standards of folks here... but they are certainly not up to the standard of any professional chef that didn't wander off the street into my kitchen.

"Sharp as humanly achievable" is a pretty open ended statement. I think it is actually the very rare chef that sharpens  a kitchen knife "as sharp as humanly achievable".

DeltaNu1142

HeavyG said:
"Sharp as humanly achievable" is a pretty open ended statement. I think it is actually the very rare chef that sharpens  a kitchen knife "as sharp as humanly achievable". 

Hah... yes, I suppose. "Reasonably-achievable," I suppose, is better.

Lit

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

hondabbq said:

So every classically trained chef is doing it all wrong?

A chef is using his knife all day every day so keeping it polished and razor sharp is not what they are going for they are usually going for just sharp enough to use.

Categorically, quite the opposite. 

Can you please expand on this?

I don't know a professional chef that wants a knife "just sharp enough to use." I also don't know a professional chef that doesn't take care to make sure their knives are as sharp as humanly achievable.

I wasn't prepared to expand. I didn't think I'd have to. I'm not a chef, and I'm not here to grandstand, but a few of my friends are chefs you may have seen (I understand that's not necessarily saying much, as you can pretty much find ten chefs on TV at any given hour of the day). I have a mid-range knife block full of things that I keep "just sharp enough to use," which may or may not be up to the standards of folks here... but they are certainly not up to the standard of any professional chef that didn't wander off the street into my kitchen.

It's not worth most chefs time to keep a knife razor sharp. You can sharpen a knife on a 2000 grit stone and it will be as sharp as you will ever need in a kitchen and sharper than most of the people who say my knives are sharp. If I worked in a kitchen I would get a 10" victorinox chef and give it a couple swipes on a 2000 grit stone every night and hit it with a ceramic honing rod as needed throughout the day. It would stay very sharp but it wouldn't shave your arm. My knives I use at home where they don't get as much use and with very little regular maintenance I can keep them sharp enough to shave with. Your high profile friends may send their knives out for care regularly and keep them really sharp but most chefs settle for sharp. When I say sharp it's way sharper than any of your knives at home but I doubt many chefs take the time to run through a 1000 grit stone to a 6000 grit stone then strip at 30000 grit then 60000 grit on a loaded strop and then polish with a bovine leather strop. I have gotten pretty good at it and it still takes me an hour to do my 6 knives. There is a level of sharp that is more than acceptable in a kitchen and cuts the work to just one stone and a rod and a couple minutes.

buzd504

Any input on how processes may differ for single edged japanese steel?  My knives could use a little sharpening, but I don't want to f*ck up the single edge.  They cut great when they're sharp.  TIA.

HeavyG

buzd504 said:

Any input on how processes may differ for single edged japanese steel?  My knives could use a little sharpening, but I don't want to f*ck up the single edge.  They cut great when they're sharp.  TIA.

Google--->YouTube--->Videos 

Lit

HeavyG said:

buzd504 said:

Any input on how processes may differ for single edged japanese steel?  My knives could use a little sharpening, but I don't want to f*ck up the single edge.  They cut great when they're sharp.  TIA.

Google--->YouTube--->Videos 

Yeah this. I just watched a couple seems the same but you just go flat on the non face side. 

Botch

Lit said:

...if a rod doesn't cut why are there different grits?

I have a related question.  
I use cabinet scrapers in my woodshop and am taught to use a steel to re-straighten the edge, just as with my kitchen knives.  What's really curious is that woodworking steels are universally highly-polished steel, no grit whatsoever, while kitchen steels are almost universally diamond- or ceramic-coated, which indicates some "sharpening" every time you use them.
I've subscribed to both Fine Woodworking and Fine Cooking and have written them both letters asking why; neither ever responded.  
I continue to use them in their respective places.  I've only taken my kitchen knives in for "professional" sharpening twice in, maybe, 28 years?  Steeling often kept them perfectly useable.
As mentioned above I got the Chef'sChoice 15 Trizor Knife Sharpener, half price during Black Friday.  It only sharpens to a 15-degree angle, so I hesitated to use it on my Henckels.  But, I've since learned that most European/American knife manufacturers, including Henckels, have now adopted the narrower sharpening angle used on Japanese knives, so one of these Saturdays I'm gonna go grinding.  I'll probably keep the stouter original angle on my heaviest chef knife, as it's only used on melons, squash and hacking through bones, the stouter angle will be more durable.  

Lit

Botch said:

Lit said:

...if a rod doesn't cut why are there different grits?

I have a related question.  
I use cabinet scrapers in my woodshop and am taught to use a steel to re-straighten the edge, just as with my kitchen knives.  What's really curious is that woodworking steels are universally highly-polished steel, no grit whatsoever, while kitchen steels are almost universally diamond- or ceramic-coated, which indicates some "sharpening" every time you use them.
I've subscribed to both Fine Woodworking and Fine Cooking and have written them both letters asking why; neither ever responded.  
I continue to use them in their respective places.  I've only taken my kitchen knives in for "professional" sharpening twice in, maybe, 28 years?  Steeling often kept them perfectly useable.
As mentioned above I got the Chef'sChoice 15 Trizor Knife Sharpener, half price during Black Friday.  It only sharpens to a 15-degree angle, so I hesitated to use it on my Henckels.  But, I've since learned that most European/American knife manufacturers, including Henckels, have now adopted the narrower sharpening angle used on Japanese knives, so one of these Saturdays I'm gonna go grinding.  I'll probably keep the stouter original angle on my heaviest chef knife, as it's only used on melons, squash and hacking through bones, the stouter angle will be more durable.  

It's because the kitchen rods are cutting. I could tell my edge was more toothy to the naked eye even with the finest ceramic rod I could find at 1200 grit. They are not just straightening the burr.

SciAggie

Hi54putty said:

I have got to stop reading this forum. Although Amazon would probably call me to ask what happened. 

That's the funniest (and most accurate) thing I have read all day.

Ozzie_Isaac

I use one of the faces on the Hope diamond for my final edge.

I don't use an eye lupe, they do not have enough magnification to tell a good edge.  I have a scanning electron microscope for that.

HeavyG

Ozzie_Isaac said:

I use one of the faces on the Hope diamond for my final edge.

I don't use an eye lupe, they do not have enough magnification to tell a good edge.  I have a scanning electron microscope for that.

So you're this guy eh? https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/the-honing-progression/comment-page-1/#comment-20

hondabbq

Lit

hondabbq said:

Lit said:

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

DeltaNu1142 said:

Lit said:

hondabbq said:

So every classically trained chef is doing it all wrong?

A chef is using his knife all day every day so keeping it polished and razor sharp is not what they are going for they are usually going for just sharp enough to use.

Categorically, quite the opposite. 

Can you please expand on this?

I don't know a professional chef that wants a knife "just sharp enough to use." I also don't know a professional chef that doesn't take care to make sure their knives are as sharp as humanly achievable.

I wasn't prepared to expand. I didn't think I'd have to. I'm not a chef, and I'm not here to grandstand, but a few of my friends are chefs you may have seen (I understand that's not necessarily saying much, as you can pretty much find ten chefs on TV at any given hour of the day). I have a mid-range knife block full of things that I keep "just sharp enough to use," which may or may not be up to the standards of folks here... but they are certainly not up to the standard of any professional chef that didn't wander off the street into my kitchen.

It's not worth most chefs time to keep a knife razor sharp. You can sharpen a knife on a 2000 grit stone and it will be as sharp as you will ever need in a kitchen and sharper than most of the people who say my knives are sharp. If I worked in a kitchen I would get a 10" victorinox chef and give it a couple swipes on a 2000 grit stone every night and hit it with a ceramic honing rod as needed throughout the day. It would stay very sharp but it wouldn't shave your arm. My knives I use at home where they don't get as much use and with very little regular maintenance I can keep them sharp enough to shave with. Your high profile friends may send their knives out for care regularly and keep them really sharp but most chefs settle for sharp. When I say sharp it's way sharper than any of your knives at home but I doubt many chefs take the time to run through a 1000 grit stone to a 6000 grit stone then strip at 30000 grit then 60000 grit on a loaded strop and then polish with a bovine leather strop. I have gotten pretty good at it and it still takes me an hour to do my 6 knives. There is a level of sharp that is more than acceptable in a kitchen and cuts the work to just one stone and a rod and a couple minutes.

Well I guess I'm the odd man out of all the chefs you or I know then. 
I shave arm hairs to check for sharp as well as a few other tests to get them the way I like and need them to be. Us chefs can't work with just sharp enough.  A properly sharpened knife will only need a few strokes on a steel throughout the day. 
I also run my knives over 4 stones to achieve the edges I require and was trained to do. 
The steel used in the knives in question will also have a major factor in how long the knifed will stay sharp. If you have to sharpen 6 knives at the same time often you should be good at it as yor wasting your time. 

Having pretty knives  doesn't mean you know how to use them efficiently either. Some friends of mine try to impress by buying pretty knives. They just look pretentious. 

Your knives may look prettier with your stropping etc but I can put my knives up against your knives any day of the week. 

Also, I'm not looking for a keyboard cowboy fight, dumping many in the profession as casual knife sharpeners is just wrong. 

I guarantee you have better knife skills than I do. I really want to improve mine. I do seriously doubt your knives are sharper than mine though. This isn't a pretty knife this is a $60 Tojiro and 4 years ago before I started using loaded strops but you can see those are mostly push cuts. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2D7_10cIY7w

fishlessman

gdenby said:

fishlessman said:

this is the stone i have, 1200 mesh is 1800 grit. paper thin results from a cheap 60 something year old knife
http://www.cutleryshoppe.com/dmtd12ef-wb12dia-sharpbenchstonewmagnabase-extra-finefine.asp

if you want to keep sharp knives sharp never put them in the sink, drawer, knife block. rinse and hang them on a mag strip and use an end grain board

Geez, I'm starting to feel old. My standby chef knife is 41 years now.

Do you use one of the blade aligner guides w. that? As I mentioned up thread, I can't hold a steady angle over the length of the blade. It doesn't make much dif. what grit I go to if working by touch, the bevel angle is all over the place.

As far as keeping them sharp, the stand by was a wedding present. 2 weeks in marriage, my wife tossed it into the sink, and snapped the tip off. Grin and bear it. Didn't have a knife block, never heard of a mag strip back then, so it went into the drawer, tho' in its cardboard sleeve till that fell apart.

It is a Sabatier/Hoffritz. Hoffritz is still part of the company, but now only makes steel tools. The particular knife appears to have be a limited run of high quality stainless. Prone to chipping, but can have a razor edge, and doesn't corrode.. Takes more care than some of my newer knives, but performs nearly as well as the best.

my grandmothers sisters husband was a butcher back in the 50's in an italian shop, somehow i got his knives, that slicer and a big butcher knife.  i dont use guides, just light strokes, that slicer is harder to sharpen, you have to place as many fingers down the blade and softly add even pressure down the length to get an even sharpness or the tip twists and over sharpens. the trick is taking it slow and very light even pressure

fishlessman

my thoughts on steels is they work well on my carbon steel knives with rockwells 55 and less and that the knives approaching 60 i dont see much benefit, also i would not use one on my single beveled knives just the european bevels

hondabbq

That is impressive to say the least. How long does your edge last doing that, lets say after cutting something of some stature. ie some squash etc? Mine are the sharpest after I stone them as well.

Does having such a fine edge not last as long? I would think that it being so fine it wouldn't last long in a real world setting. With it being so fine I would think it would burl over pretty quick.

It looks pretty for things like a 12 sec video etc.

Lit

hondabbq said:

That is impressive to say the least. How long does your edge last doing that, lets say after cutting something of some stature. ie some squash etc? Mine are the sharpest after I stone them as well.

Does having such a fine edge not last as long? I would think that it being so fine it wouldn't last long in a real world setting. With it being so fine I would think it would burl over pretty quick.

It looks pretty for things like a 12 sec video etc.

That blade is shirogami which has a hardness of 64/65 so it will hold that edge for several cooks easily if not longer. I am not taking it to an extreme angle it's no less than 15 degrees it's the polishing from the strop that takes it to the next level. I have tried taking it down to 10 degrees before but the issue isn't the burr folding it's the blade is so hard it starts to chip since it's so thin. I keep all my knives like that my cleaver will do the same thing and it doesn't take much maintenance for home use just a couple passes on a strop acts the same as a honing rod but it's not abrasive. When I did this video my strop was a piece of leather I got from a hardware store and glued to a 2"*2" and many people even use old leather belts. I probably worded it wrong when I said a lot of chefs keep their knives just sharp enough I know they are using knives way sharper than most home use knives but they aren't being anal like I can be for my knives because mine don't get used all day in a kitchen. 

Lit

divr71 said:

I need help on sharpening my knives. I am asking for help on what is the best equipment/technique for sharpening my knives..

I realized after all this I never answered your question. I bought this stone probably 6-8 years ago to learn to sharpen and have never bought another one since this works so good. The 1000 grit is perfect to sharpen once or twice a year and the 6000 is great to polish. Its also cheap so if you decide you don't like hand sharpening your not out much money. If you do decide you like it you will eventually want to buy a 300 grit stone to run over the king stone every so often to make sure you keep your sharpening stone flat but I picked up my 300 grit stone from super h mart for like $10. This one stone and some practice and you will never have dull knives again. I watched all the videos on sharpening at chefknivestogo but you can find a bunch on youtube also. Oh and you don't need a stone holder I just wet a kitchen towel and fold it in half and put th estone on it that stops it from sliding around. http://www.amazon.com/King-Combination-Waterstone-1000-6000/dp/B0037MCLLO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1453224305&sr=8-3&keywords=king+1000/6000 http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-sharpening-tutorials.html

fishlessman

Lit said:

divr71 said:

I need help on sharpening my knives. I am asking for help on what is the best equipment/technique for sharpening my knives..

I realized after all this I never answered your question. I bought this stone probably 6-8 years ago to learn to sharpen and have never bought another one since this works so good. The 1000 grit is perfect to sharpen once or twice a year and the 6000 is great to polish. Its also cheap so if you decide you don't like hand sharpening your not out much money. If you do decide you like it you will eventually want to buy a 300 grit stone to run over the king stone every so often to make sure you keep your sharpening stone flat but I picked up my 300 grit stone from super h mart for like $10. This one stone and some practice and you will never have dull knives again. I watched all the videos on sharpening at chefknivestogo but you can find a bunch on youtube also. Oh and you don't need a stone holder I just wet a kitchen towel and fold it in half and put th estone on it that stops it from sliding around. http://www.amazon.com/King-Combination-Waterstone-1000-6000/dp/B0037MCLLO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1453224305&sr=8-3&keywords=king+1000/6000 http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-sharpening-tutorials.html

for the price point thats one of the best stones on the market, i keep one at camp

Thatgrimguy

How is this for honing?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000N5BVN2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_5&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

westernbbq

chefs choice trizor.  XV.   I think it is xv.  It is out on loan right now so i cant check the number.  It was recommended by cooks magazine, the ine chris kimbal publishes and it was $75 on amazon prime.  Best money i ever spent.  Easy to use amd makes smooth edged or serrated blades ultra sharp

I

Lit

Thatgrimguy said:

How is this for honing?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000N5BVN2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_5&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I couldn't find the grit anywhere. You want to find the highest grit you can. If you look at the Q&A section on the one you linked 2 of the answers said you can see that it removes metal. This was the 1200 grit one I had found when I originally had bought one it was the smoothest I found. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/sharpeningrod.html

ScottNC

Great Thread here, Thanks all for posting their knowledge, learning a bunch from it

hondabbq

hondabbq

https://youtu.be/1cBgE6wIsxs