Lacto-Fermentation pH Question

paqman · January 2023

Hmmm, I think that I need to step up my game, I never bothered measuring PH. I just watch for bubbles/smell.

I use this kit which is pretty much set and forget: https://www.amazon.ca/Masontops-Kit-complet-fermentation-Mason/dp/B098KCCMG1/

What are you using to measure the PH?

lkapigian · January 2023

paqman said:

Hmmm, I think that I need to step up my game, I never bothered measuring PH. I just watch for bubbles/smell.

I use this kit which is pretty much set and forget: https://www.amazon.ca/Masontops-Kit-complet-fermentation-Mason/dp/B098KCCMG1/

What are you using to measure the PH?

You are better off going by instinct, though I have an Apera I bought when I started fermenting protein, it rarely if ever gets used now. Learning to rely on numbers take away the natural feel of these kinds of projects ( IMO) only thing I measure is salt content. …..I used to obsess over the numbers when curing meat, now I enjoy the process of trusting smell and feel , you’ll hone your skills in knowing if and when something is going south and call an audible

paqman · January 2023

lkapigian said:

paqman said:

Hmmm, I think that I need to step up my game, I never bothered measuring PH. I just watch for bubbles/smell.

I use this kit which is pretty much set and forget: https://www.amazon.ca/Masontops-Kit-complet-fermentation-Mason/dp/B098KCCMG1/

What are you using to measure the PH?

You are better off going by instinct, though I have an Apera I bought when I started fermenting protein, it rarely if ever gets used now. Learning to rely on numbers take away the natural feel of these kinds of projects ( IMO) only thing I measure is salt content. …..I used to obsess over the numbers when curing meat, now I enjoy the process of trusting smell and feel , you’ll hone your skills in knowing if and when something is going south and call an audible

For meat, I think that I would definitely want to measure PH and be 100% sure… For now I am sticking to veggies.

lkapigian · January 2023

@paqman , what I found with fermented meats is we tend to rush the PH drop and is why stater cultures are used to help overcome “ safety hurdles “ , while it was a safe product and fun process, everything tended to taste the same

I’ve since eliminated all starter cultures and induced molds and the product is far superior, 24 hour fermentation is just not enough time to develop flavors

I will say the use of a PH meter helped overcome my fears , but I made sure to pay attention to my senses in relation to the readings, much like being able to tell the ambient temperature without looking at a thermometer

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

paqman said:

Hmmm, I think that I need to step up my game, I never bothered measuring PH. I just watch for bubbles/smell.

I use this kit which is pretty much set and forget: https://www.amazon.ca/Masontops-Kit-complet-fermentation-Mason/dp/B098KCCMG1/

What are you using to measure the PH?

I have an Apera my wife got me for Christmas. It is way overkill for this, but satisfies my curiosity. I like numbers and this is helping me learn what is happening and relating it to my other sensory ques like taste, smell, and sight.

I really like it and it helps me to overcome my 'Merican refrigeration bias. Plus, I am a hypochondriac by nature.

https://www.amazon.com/Apera-Instruments-AI311-Replaceable-2-00-16-00/dp/B01ENFOIQE?ref_=ast_sto_dp

lkapigian · January 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

paqman said:

Hmmm, I think that I need to step up my game, I never bothered measuring PH. I just watch for bubbles/smell.

I use this kit which is pretty much set and forget: https://www.amazon.ca/Masontops-Kit-complet-fermentation-Mason/dp/B098KCCMG1/

What are you using to measure the PH?

I have an Apera my wife got me for Christmas. It is way overkill for this, but satisfies my curiosity. I like numbers and this is helping me learn what is happening and relating it to my other sensory ques like taste, smell, and sight.

I really like it and it helps me to overcome my 'Merican refrigeration bias. Plus, I am a hypochondriac by nature.

https://www.amazon.com/Apera-Instruments-AI311-Replaceable-2-00-16-00/dp/B01ENFOIQE?ref_=ast_sto_dp

That’s the one I have, works quite well, replaceable tip , now put it away LoL

caliking · January 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Day 2; Day 3; Day 4; Day 5 (pH)

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13; 4.12; 4.12
1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01; 4.33; 4.17
1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68; 3.99; 3.87
1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06; 4.88; 4.66 and oddly clear brine as opposed to other 3 jars.

The 2nd jar of tomatoes has a slightly higher pH than the other one. I wonder if its fermenting slower. Any difference in contents?

May be a difference in the bug inoculum. Washing the veg, washing your hands, or stirring with a utensil (vs. stirring things with your hands) can decrease the inoculum of friendly bugs in the mix.

Just some morning spitballing from this side

fishlessman · January 2023

i have to ferment on the warm spot on top of the fridge this time of year. i would put the clear one there and let it catch up

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

caliking said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Day 2; Day 3; Day 4; Day 5 (pH)

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13; 4.12; 4.12
1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01; 4.33; 4.17
1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68; 3.99; 3.87
1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06; 4.88; 4.66 and oddly clear brine as opposed to other 3 jars.

The 2nd jar of tomatoes has a slightly higher pH than the other one. I wonder if its fermenting slower. Any difference in contents?

May be a difference in the bug inoculum. Washing the veg, washing your hands, or stirring with a utensil (vs. stirring things with your hands) can decrease the inoculum of friendly bugs in the mix.

Just some morning spitballing from this side

The cloudy one, which is rapidly fementing, had three dried and unwashed Carolina Reapers put in. That Is the only difference in the two. Interestingly, that is the one with my makeshift weight (vacuum sealer bag of coins).

caliking · January 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

caliking said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Day 2; Day 3; Day 4; Day 5 (pH)

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13; 4.12; 4.12
1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01; 4.33; 4.17
1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68; 3.99; 3.87
1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06; 4.88; 4.66 and oddly clear brine as opposed to other 3 jars.

The 2nd jar of tomatoes has a slightly higher pH than the other one. I wonder if its fermenting slower. Any difference in contents?

May be a difference in the bug inoculum. Washing the veg, washing your hands, or stirring with a utensil (vs. stirring things with your hands) can decrease the inoculum of friendly bugs in the mix.

Just some morning spitballing from this side

The cloudy one, which is rapidly fementing, had three dried and unwashed Carolina Reapers put in. That Is the only difference in the two. Interestingly, that is the one with my makeshift weight (vacuum sealer bag of coins).

The unwashed chiles are likely it. Friendly molds/yeasts live on all kinds of organic surfaces, and usually help fermentation processes.

When making fermented batter for some South Indian foods (idli, dosa) the key is adding a portion of unwashed lentils, and stirring with a clean hand (but not soap washed, or sanitized) to inoculate the mix.

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

Tested 1 jar of pickles. They taste very garlicky, three crushed cloves was probably too much. They are starting to develop really good flavor, but definitely need probably another 3 days.

I only tested the one tomatoes with slightly higher pH and it is now: 4.44, so all is well in all four batches. The color is starting to develop in that one too. I think @caliking nailed it. The unwashed peppers probably helped.

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

Oh, and these babies are fizzing like crazy. Damn near like eating a carbonated pickle.

caliking · January 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Oh, and these babies are fizzing like crazy. Damn near like eating a carbonated pickle.

That's kinda cool!

Never thought of fermenting whole tomatoes before, so I'll try them the next time I get something going. My aunt used to make a fermented spicy ketchup that was amazing.

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

3 crushed cloves of garlic may be too much for some people. Making another batch with just one crushed clove. I like the garlic flavor personally.

Also, Tapico Pickling packages are awful for pickles. Pickles had beautiful heat with the Carolina Reapers, but the picking seasoning had a terrible, like absolutely awful, initial bite. The aftertaste was great, but that first hit was to strong of clove and something I cannot identify. Just terrible.Tossed the whole batch.

Making another batch with just coriander, mustard seed, black pepper, red pepper flakes, Carolina Reaper, fresh dill, dried dill, and one garlic clove. Still 2.5% by weight. Wish I could lower salt content a bit.

caliking · January 2023

The Carolina Reaper batch sounds like it was tasty. And, that garlicky jar sounds like it was just right

Are you looking to lower salt content to make it taste less salty, or for a lower sodium diet? Way back when, I think I read about calcium chloride being used for brining (and I think lactofermentation), because in commercial/industrial settings, disposal of sodium chloride brine is an issue. I haven't tried it myself, but may be worth looking into.

If looking to make it taste less salty, I wonder if you could ferment as planned, then soak in water to desalinate. For storage in the fridge, add sodium benzoate (0.001 x weight). It doesn't seem to impact flavor, the couple of times I've used it for uncooked hot sauce kind of stuff, but I don't know how desalination would affect texture/crunchiness/crispiness.

lkapigian · January 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

3 crushed cloves of garlic may be too much for some people. Making another batch with just one crushed clove. I like the garlic flavor personally.

Also, Tapico Pickling packages are awful for pickles. Pickles had beautiful heat with the Carolina Reapers, but the picking seasoning had a terrible, like absolutely awful, initial bite. The aftertaste was great, but that first hit was to strong of clove and something I cannot identify. Just terrible.Tossed the whole batch.

Making another batch with just coriander, mustard seed, black pepper, red pepper flakes, Carolina Reaper, fresh dill, dried dill, and one garlic clove. Still 2.5% by weight. Wish I could lower salt content a bit.

@Ozzie_Isaac, you can safely go 2% brine ( weight of the water not product) and be fine , I would just stay above 1.5% at the very least

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

@caliking I want to reduce the salt amount due to flavor. I think a wash might work to reduce that.

Looking at the numbers, I might need to rethink my consumption of pickles too. At an equilibrium solution of 2.5% NaCl content that means a single (2.5 oz) pickle has almost 1800 milligrams of salt, which I believe equates to 700 milligrams of sodium.

@Ikapiian

Thank you for that lower limit! I will give that a shot here soon.

lkapigian · January 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

@caliking I want to reduce the salt amount due to flavor. I think a wash might work to reduce that.

Looking at the numbers, I might need to rethink my consumption of pickles too. At an equilibrium solution of 2.5% NaCl content that means a single (2.5 oz) pickle has almost 1800 milligrams of salt, which I believe equates to 700 milligrams of sodium.

@Ikapiian

Thank you for that lower limit! I will give that a shot here soon.

Truth be told, it can be done without salt , not sure I would try that but it is possible, salt just overcomes a hurdle

Ozzie_Isaac · January 2023

lkapigian said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

@caliking I want to reduce the salt amount due to flavor. I think a wash might work to reduce that.

Looking at the numbers, I might need to rethink my consumption of pickles too. At an equilibrium solution of 2.5% NaCl content that means a single (2.5 oz) pickle has almost 1800 milligrams of salt, which I believe equates to 700 milligrams of sodium.

@Ikapiian

Thank you for that lower limit! I will give that a shot here soon.

Truth be told, it can be done without salt , not sure I would try that but it is possible, salt just overcomes a hurdle

So far the family prefers a low heat (140F for 2.5hrs) water & vinegar quick pickle.

That is what makes this interesting though. Lots to play with.

Ozzie_Isaac · February 2023

Ate one cherry tomato last night, didn't die, so had 3 more today. Absolute flavor bombs. Put them into the fridge because they are heading towards too sour, but not yet. I think a few weeks less may have been a better stopping point.

PH on clearer tomato jar settled around 3.99. Onions are a bit on the mushy side for my texture preference, but flavor was great.

Need to decide what to use these in, otherwise I will just keep eating them like snacks.

lkapigian · February 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Ate one cherry tomato last night, didn't die, so had 3 more today. Absolute flavor bombs. Put them into the fridge because they are heading towards too sour, but not yet. I think a few weeks less may have been a better stopping point.

PH on clearer tomato jar settled around 3.99. Onions are a bit on the mushy side for my texture preference, but flavor was great.

Need to decide what to use these in, otherwise I will just keep eating them like snacks.

Caprese Skewers

Ozzie_Isaac · February 2023

lkapigian said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Ate one cherry tomato last night, didn't die, so had 3 more today. Absolute flavor bombs. Put them into the fridge because they are heading towards too sour, but not yet. I think a few weeks less may have been a better stopping point.

PH on clearer tomato jar settled around 3.99. Onions are a bit on the mushy side for my texture preference, but flavor was great.

Need to decide what to use these in, otherwise I will just keep eating them like snacks.

Caprese Skewers

Oh man, I bet that would great. Time to get some fresh mozzarella.

Was also thinking a fermented salsa? Although I could probably make that fresh and ferment the entire thing?

lkapigian · February 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:

lkapigian said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Ate one cherry tomato last night, didn't die, so had 3 more today. Absolute flavor bombs. Put them into the fridge because they are heading towards too sour, but not yet. I think a few weeks less may have been a better stopping point.

PH on clearer tomato jar settled around 3.99. Onions are a bit on the mushy side for my texture preference, but flavor was great.

Need to decide what to use these in, otherwise I will just keep eating them like snacks.

Caprese Skewers

Oh man, I bet that would great. Time to get some fresh mozzarella.

Was also thinking a fermented salsa? Although I could probably make that fresh and ferment the entire thing?

Yes make it fresh , add 2% salt to the mash and let it rock , mashes ferment ultra quick , a week for a salsa is perfect

edit, add cilantro and Avacado after the ferment

Botch · February 2023

Ozzie_Isaac said:
Was also thinking a fermented salsa? Although I could probably make that fresh and ferment the entire thing?

My very first ferment was 3 small jars of salsa; they were tasty but a tad too salty. Awaiting tomato season to experiment more.

fishlessman · February 2023

Botch said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:
Was also thinking a fermented salsa? Although I could probably make that fresh and ferment the entire thing?

My very first ferment was 3 small jars of salsa; they were tasty but a tad too salty. Awaiting tomato season to experiment more.

Use it in quacamole and don't add salt, betting it's a game changer

Ozzie_Isaac · February 2023

Opened up the second jar of tomatoes. Forgot I had dried Carolina Reapers in there too. Oh my, flavor is amazing, but absolutely burn your face off hot.

Lacto-Fermentation pH Question

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