Lacto-Fermentation pH Question

Ozzie_Isaac

I started four fermentations yesterday (two w/cucumbers & two w/cherry tomatoes)  I did 2.5% salt by weight of veggies and water.  Actual brine was 3.75% (2.5 cups water, 0.8 oz salt), that solution with veggies should end at 2.5% total.

I checked my pH today and it is still 5.45.  I expected <4.6 after 24hrs.  Should I be concerned?

caliking

I think you're fine. The brine concentration sounds right. I've done 3%+ before, but usually do 5%, because the math is easier (for me). Never had any problems with the 3%+ brine. 

I'd wait for @lkappigian to chime in, though. He knows way more about this. 

lkapigian

The brine should be 2% or greater weight of the water only … you can do the same weight of veggies in a mash ( no water ) that being said so long as the PH is trending downward, your lacto bacillus are alive and well 

but hey , was this a rigged question lol

Ozzie_Isaac

@caliking and @Ikapigian thank you, I will not worry. I will keep an eye on pH and roll with it.

Was planning on half sour pickles, but will see how flavors develop along with pH.

And nope, not rigged.  Just paranoid.  I love ferments, but 'Merica has taught me to fear controlled decay and love refrigeration.

2nd Edit: I asked @The_Buffalo to move your great thread to the main forum a few months ago, but no response yet.

fishlessman

you are less than a day in, is it even fermenting yet   i kinda would expect the cherry tomatos to start less acidic than the cukes, they can be alot sweeter at the start

Ozzie_Isaac

fishlessman said:

you are less than a day in, is it even fermenting yet   i kinda would expect the cherry tomatos to start less acidic than the cukes, they can be alot sweeter at the start

Not much has started, but I only planned on 5 days for the pickles (half-sour) so was hoping I would have seen a larger pH drop.  I will keep tracking, and might go longer on the pickles.  Tomatoes I planned for 7-14 days.

Last time I planned for a 28 day ferment, I accidentally went 52 weeks.

lkapigian

Ozzie_Isaac said:

fishlessman said:

you are less than a day in, is it even fermenting yet   i kinda would expect the cherry tomatos to start less acidic than the cukes, they can be alot sweeter at the start

Not much has started, but I only planned on 5 days for the pickles (half-sour) so was hoping I would have seen a larger pH drop.  I will keep tracking, and might go longer on the pickles.  Tomatoes I planned for 7-14 days.

Last time I planned for a 28 day ferment, I accidentally went 52 weeks.

what is the ambient temp where you are fermenting, half sours should be done in 5 days ish 70-80 room temp, they will be more higher in the PH spectrum thus the half sour .....

Ozzie_Isaac

lkapigian said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

fishlessman said:

you are less than a day in, is it even fermenting yet   i kinda would expect the cherry tomatos to start less acidic than the cukes, they can be alot sweeter at the start

Not much has started, but I only planned on 5 days for the pickles (half-sour) so was hoping I would have seen a larger pH drop.  I will keep tracking, and might go longer on the pickles.  Tomatoes I planned for 7-14 days.

Last time I planned for a 28 day ferment, I accidentally went 52 weeks.

what is the ambient temp where you are fermenting, half sours should be done in 5 days ish 70-80 room temp, they will be more higher in the PH spectrum thus the half sour .....

Ambient temp is 68 deg.

I should not expect them to drop below 4.6?

fishlessman

Ozzie_Isaac said:

fishlessman said:

you are less than a day in, is it even fermenting yet   i kinda would expect the cherry tomatos to start less acidic than the cukes, they can be alot sweeter at the start

Not much has started, but I only planned on 5 days for the pickles (half-sour) so was hoping I would have seen a larger pH drop.  I will keep tracking, and might go longer on the pickles.  Tomatoes I planned for 7-14 days.

Last time I planned for a 28 day ferment, I accidentally went 52 weeks.

thats been one of my problems. champagne in a clay pot thats in the 2.5 year range, same with a lost in the meat drawer duck prosciutto and a homemade worcestershire sauce thats been sitting on the fridge the whole time.

lkapigian

Ozzie_Isaac said:

lkapigian said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

fishlessman said:

you are less than a day in, is it even fermenting yet   i kinda would expect the cherry tomatos to start less acidic than the cukes, they can be alot sweeter at the start

Not much has started, but I only planned on 5 days for the pickles (half-sour) so was hoping I would have seen a larger pH drop.  I will keep tracking, and might go longer on the pickles.  Tomatoes I planned for 7-14 days.

Last time I planned for a 28 day ferment, I accidentally went 52 weeks.

what is the ambient temp where you are fermenting, half sours should be done in 5 days ish 70-80 room temp, they will be more higher in the PH spectrum thus the half sour .....

Ambient temp is 68 deg.

I should not expect them to drop below 4.6?

That is a little on the cooler side so add a couple  days ....I haven't checked the ph on the half sour but I would think 4.2- 4.6 ish,I know my month long ferments hit 3.5

caliking

Forgot to ask earlier if you added bay leaves to keep the pickles crispy/crunchy.

Ozzie_Isaac

caliking said:

Forgot to ask earlier if you added bay leaves to keep the pickles crispy/crunchy.

One has bay leaves, one does not.  Didn't realize they helped crunchiness.

lkapigian

Ozzie_Isaac said:

caliking said:

Forgot to ask earlier if you added bay leaves to keep the pickles crispy/crunchy.

One has bay leaves, one does not.  Didn't realize they helped crunchiness.

That and cut the bloom end , I think anything with tannins help the crunch 

Botch

Ozzie_Isaac said:

caliking said:

Forgot to ask earlier if you added bay leaves to keep the pickles crispy/crunchy.

One has bay leaves, one does not.  Didn't realize they helped crunchiness.

Please report back on how they compare; I had been using a pinch of Pickle Crisp™ (pure calcium chloride) but if I can use something natural I'd prefer that (and the local Asian market sells big bags of bay leaves for almost nothing).    

Ozzie_Isaac

Things are starting to move:

1 jar of pickles starting to smell wonderful and looking cloudy and is at 5.00

1 jar smells very faint and is at 5.38

1 jar of tomatoes is cloudy and smells pretty good with strong onion scent and is at 5.56

1 jar of tomatoes smells like water with some spices and is at 5.40

Botch

<slapping forehead, violently, at seeing a venting air seal made with just a simple piece of cellophane!>  <and it'll fit ANY jar/crock!>  

alaskanassasin

Botch said:

<slapping forehead, violently, at seeing a venting air seal made with just a simple piece of cellophane!>  <and it'll fit ANY jar/crock!>  

 Prison pickles? Latex glow will work too with a pin hole

Ozzie_Isaac

alaskanassasin said:

Botch said:

<slapping forehead, violently, at seeing a venting air seal made with just a simple piece of cellophane!>  <and it'll fit ANY jar/crock!>  

 Prison pickles? Latex glow will work too with a pin hole

I don't even poke a hole.. once it starts to really balloon, just manually release.

However, a pin prick sounds like a good idea.

buzd504

Ozzie_Isaac said:

  just manually release.

Of course

Botch

Ozzie_Isaac said:

alaskanassasin said:

Botch said:

<slapping forehead, violently, at seeing a venting air seal made with just a simple piece of cellophane!>  <and it'll fit ANY jar/crock!>  

 Prison pickles? Latex glow will work too with a pin hole

I don't even poke a hole.. once it starts to really balloon, just manually release.

However, a pin prick sounds like a good idea.

What I was thinking is, even if it balloons, the cellophane will release from the glass (downward) before the pressure threatens breakage of the glass jar.  
A pin prick can let oxygen back in, although I'm realizing that the CO2 generated by LF continually pushes air OUT of any container, as long as the fermentation continues.  I finally had some luck just by using canning jars/lids, just not tightening the lids down onto the jars; they "self-burp" when the internal pressure requires it.  
Another issue I've had is not leaving enough air space in the top of the jar.  I'd left just 1/8" or so, and then left them undisturbed on a stable counter.  Within a day or two, the jars started spitting brine out onto the counter.  My theory is that CO2 is building up inside the food, swelling it but not releasing into the brine just yet, that's why the brine gets pushed out.  
I'm taking notes, and continuing to experiment.  

Ozzie_Isaac

Botch said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

alaskanassasin said:

Botch said:

<slapping forehead, violently, at seeing a venting air seal made with just a simple piece of cellophane!>  <and it'll fit ANY jar/crock!>  

 Prison pickles? Latex glow will work too with a pin hole

I don't even poke a hole.. once it starts to really balloon, just manually release.

However, a pin prick sounds like a good idea.

What I was thinking is, even if it balloons, the cellophane will release from the glass (downward) before the pressure threatens breakage of the glass jar.  
A pin prick can let oxygen back in, although I'm realizing that the CO2 generated by LF continually pushes air OUT of any container, as long as the fermentation continues.  I finally had some luck just by using canning jars/lids, just not tightening the lids down onto the jars; they "self-burp" when the internal pressure requires it.  
Another issue I've had is not leaving enough air space in the top of the jar.  I'd left just 1/8" or so, and then left them undisturbed on a stable counter.  Within a day or two, the jars started spitting brine out onto the counter.  My theory is that CO2 is building up inside the food, swelling it but not releasing into the brine just yet, that's why the brine gets pushed out.  
I'm taking notes, and continuing to experiment.  

I never leave enough head space.  I always plan to, but never do.  I leave them in either a bowl or an aluminum half sheet pan.  Any seepage is contained.

nolaegghead

I’ve seen people use beer brewing air locks for fermentation.  The environmental differences between aerobic and anaerobic support entirely different life forms, so always know what you’re doing, esp pH

Botch

nolaegghead said:

I’ve seen people use beer brewing air locks for fermentation.  The environmental differences between aerobic and anaerobic support entirely different life forms, so always know what you’re doing, esp pH

So where' the adventure in that?    

Ozzie_Isaac

Day 2; Day 3 pH

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13

1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01

1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68

1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06

I completely remove the tops to test the pH, so I know I am letting oxygen back in.  Hopefully, the very little head space I have will not impact anything besides some yeast growth which should consume any oxygen.  Plus, all my veggies are well below the water line, except for a dehydrated carolina reaper that insists on floating up.

caliking

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Day 2; Day 3 pH

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13

1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01

1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68

1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06

I completely remove the tops to test the pH, so I know I am letting oxygen back in.  Hopefully, the very little head space I have will not impact anything besides some yeast growth which should consume any oxygen.  Plus, all my veggies are well below the water line, except for a dehydrated carolina reaper that insists on floating up.

These are helpful:
4-Pack Fermentation Glass Weights with Easy Grip Grooved Handles Heavy Fermenting Lids Fermentation Kit for Any Wide Mouth Mason Jars https://a.co/d/2WZ7iyw

I sometimes fold a paper towel and lay it across the top, to keep the floaters submerged. 

caliking

nolaegghead said:

I’ve seen people use beer brewing air locks for fermentation.  The environmental differences between aerobic and anaerobic support entirely different life forms, so always know what you’re doing, esp pH

This. I fill the airlock with vodka, because stuff grows in our tap water. Or, use bottled water. 

Ozzie_Isaac

caliking said:

nolaegghead said:

I’ve seen people use beer brewing air locks for fermentation.  The environmental differences between aerobic and anaerobic support entirely different life forms, so always know what you’re doing, esp pH

This. I fill the airlock with vodka, because stuff grows in our tap water. Or, use bottled water. 

I see it now.  Once Caliprince is a little older, he and his buddies will be drinking all your airlocks dry.

Also, I will definitely be ordering more of those glass toppers.  I had some in a kit, bit didn't like the knobs that stick out the top and taking up the space.  Those recessed ones on yours look like a much better configuration.

caliking

Ozzie_Isaac said:

caliking said:

nolaegghead said:

I’ve seen people use beer brewing air locks for fermentation.  The environmental differences between aerobic and anaerobic support entirely different life forms, so always know what you’re doing, esp pH

This. I fill the airlock with vodka, because stuff grows in our tap water. Or, use bottled water. 

I see it now.  Once Caliprince is a little older, he and his buddies will be drinking all your airlocks dry.

Also, I will definitely be ordering more of those glass toppers.  I had some in a kit, bit didn't like the knobs that stick out the top and taking up the space.  Those recessed ones on yours look like a much better configuration.

I can see him at a college bar ... "waddayamean shots? We call those airlocks..."

Ozzie_Isaac

Day 2; Day 3; Day 4  (pH)

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13; 4.12

1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01; 4.33

1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68; 3.99
(Added a paper towel under the weights because all three carolina reapers popped to the top)

1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06; 4.88

This is mostly for my record keeping, but thank you for reading and following along.

The saran wrap one definitely puffs up, so LB is doing its thing.

Ozzie_Isaac

Day 2; Day 3; Day 4; Day 5 (pH)

1 jar of pickles 5.00; 4.13; 4.12; 4.12

1 jar pickles 5.38; 5.01; 4.33; 4.17

1 jar of tomatoes 5.56; 4.68; 3.99; 3.87

1 jar of tomatoes 5.40; 5.06; 4.88; 4.66 and oddly clear brine as opposed to other 3 jars.

lkapigian

Spot on my friend @Ozzie_Isaac