Aaron Franklin Masterclass

bicktrav said

Yeah, I've heard him say that he's not in love with kamados. I get what he's saying in that the wood you throw in an egg doesn't combust the way it does in an offset because there is too little oxygen once you close the dome. In an egg, wood doesn't burn, it smolders and smokes, and that variety of combustion doesn't generate the same flavor as a raging wood fire. And since the wood isn't burning at full clip, it's not generating heat; your heat source comes from the mostly flavorless lump. That said, there are huge advantages to kamados. The biggest is that you don't have to sit by the fire and feed it for twelve hours at a time. Between kids and work, I never have a day to myself to just tend to a fire, so, although the smoke flavor might be superior in an offset, I would literally never use it. Plus, I think the flavor you get out of a BGE can get you pretty damn close.

bicktrav said:

Jcl5150 said:

I read he uses post oak for his firewood.  Would throwing post oak chunks into the Egg get a brisket closer in flavor to Frankin’s?

I've smoked with post oak chunks in the egg. It's great, but for all the reasons I mentioned in the post above, you really can't achieve the same flavor as he does on his offset. The wood just doesn't combust in the same way. But using post oak in the BGE still makes for an awesome brisket. I would definitely recommend it.

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

I only use post oak chunks in my egg and I cut them from firewood (the store bought ones are all kiln dried). 

I have spent a lot of time working on trying to get the cleanest possible fire working with a bge and I am pretty damn close. I’m knee deep in 350lbs of sausage casing at the moment so I’ll get into all of the details later if you want. 

To cut to the chase:

fill your firebox up to the bottom of the ring, add 3-4 wood chunks and then dump a full lit chimney of lump on top of that, get your temp where you want it and cook away. 

The ignited lump purifies the smoke As it passes through and gets as close as an offset /wood burning out as i have found. I can barely tell the difference anymore. Cooked on my kbq last night and couldn’t really tell the difference. Maybe a tiny bit but not enough for most to notice. 

Photo Egg said:

NDG said:

bicktrav said

Yeah, I've heard him say that he's not in love with kamados. I get what he's saying in that the wood you throw in an egg doesn't combust the way it does in an offset because there is too little oxygen once you close the dome. In an egg, wood doesn't burn, it smolders and smokes, and that variety of combustion doesn't generate the same flavor as a raging wood fire. And since the wood isn't burning at full clip, it's not generating heat; your heat source comes from the mostly flavorless lump. That said, there are huge advantages to kamados. The biggest is that you don't have to sit by the fire and feed it for twelve hours at a time. Between kids and work, I never have a day to myself to just tend to a fire, so, although the smoke flavor might be superior in an offset, I would literally never use it. Plus, I think the flavor you get out of a BGE can get you pretty damn close.

perfectly said - no wasted words - I agree 110% - BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO !!!

Except that an offset does not need a raging fire. Just a good bed of coals and a small flaming fire. It’s advantage is that it produces a more pure, clean smoke.
Just depends on the quality level you are happy with compared to time involved maintaining temp control.
A good quality brisket, fresh off the Egg, will rival all but the very best BBQ joints. Especially because many BBQ joints don’t always serve the brisket at its prime time. Who knows how long it has sat, partially sliced and wrapped back up. 

Places like AF are the exception, not the norm.

bicktrav said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

I only use post oak chunks in my egg and I cut them from firewood (the store bought ones are all kiln dried). 

I have spent a lot of time working on trying to get the cleanest possible fire working with a bge and I am pretty damn close. I’m knee deep in 350lbs of sausage casing at the moment so I’ll get into all of the details later if you want. 

To cut to the chase:

fill your firebox up to the bottom of the ring, add 3-4 wood chunks and then dump a full lit chimney of lump on top of that, get your temp where you want it and cook away. 

The ignited lump purifies the smoke As it passes through and gets as close as an offset /wood burning out as i have found. I can barely tell the difference anymore. Cooked on my kbq last night and couldn’t really tell the difference. Maybe a tiny bit but not enough for most to notice. 

This is really interesting. Why does the ignited lump purify the smoke?

lousubcap said:

The above is a true masterpiece about managing Q.  This should be required reading for anyone who aspires to really achieve consistent and excellent results.
@The Cen-Tex Smoker is a Q whisperer.  Read if really wanting to lift your game...or go out and buy more and different cooking style toys!

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

bicktrav said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

sorry for the delay- that was one wild weekend and I fell asleep at 8:30 last night after all that!

I have spent a lot of time (and a bit of coin) chasing clean smoke. Anyone who has watched this Franklin Masterclass (or any of his free stuff on youtube) will quickly understand his message that a fully oxygenated fire delivers clean smoke and a fire starved of oxygen delivers dirty smoke.

In my search I came across a great article with correlating video of Dr. Greg Blonder on the pit master side of Amazing Ribs (the pay side). He basically broke down the science of fire, clean fire vs dirty fire, and how to achieve/avoid both. Basically, the same information as in the Franklin videos  but way more detailed on the "why" part (it was an hour long video just about the science of fire if I remember right). The point is: A fully oxygenated fire, is clean burning fire and will give you very clean smoke with all the flavor compounds and steam that you are looking for when bbqing. Since the entire premise behind low and slow kamodo cooking is to starve the fire of oxygen, it's impossible to have a fully oxygenated fire in there and keep temps low enough for smoking food (you fully oxygenate a kamado and you are at 1000 degrees in minutes). You have to choke off the oxygen and that makes any wood in there smolder and give off nasty "dirty" smoke. after watching this lecture I finally understood the limitations of cooking in a vessel that required me to choke off oxygen to the fire.

Now for the coin (stick with me, it will all come back to the BGE shortly). Once I realized that the only way to get clean smoke is to cook with a fully oxygenated fire, I knew I was going to have to buy an offset/wood burning smoker of some kind. In my search, I came across the Karubeque C-60 (it was mentioned in that Dr. Blonder video or advertised on the side bar or something like that). Meathead loves the kbq and mentions it often. I looked into it for months and decided it was the perfect fit for what I was looking for. 1- Full wood-burning pit, 2- small enough to throw in my pickup to take with me, and 3- would fit a lot of food in small package. The KBQ was built by an engineer in Dallas to address the issue with dirty smoke that is so common in people who cook with wood. He has an entire section of his site dedicated to clean smoke and I learned a ton from that too (link below). He addresses the dirty smoke issue by putting the fire box on top of the unit and has a fan draw the smoke down through the coal bed below. These uber-hot temps purify the smoke and only the good stuff (steam and flavenoids) pass through to the cook chamber. Pretty cool stuff.

Soooooo- how does this have anything to do with kamado cooking and clean smoke? Well, I figured that if smoke can be drawn down through the coal bed with a fan and be purified like in my KBQ, it can certainly go up (its natural path) through a coal bed and do the same, or at least similar in a kamado.  So if you place hot coals over your wood chunks in a BGE, the smoke from that wood has to pass upward through the hot lump and a lot of it gets purified and burns clean the same way it would in a fire that is fully oxygenated. It's not perfect but it is so much better than placing wood chunks on top of your hot lump and letting it smolder that most people could not tell the difference (BTW- I am not claiming in any way to be the first to think this or say this somewhere but I did come to it on my own after a lot of digging).

Another point of reference for me was a video I watched of Harry Soo cooking a hot and fast brisket at 350. He did that one in a WSM but the same theory would be true in a kamado. He actually puts the chunks in first, then adds lump, then adds a chimney full of burning lump on top of all that. The hot fire heats the wood underneath and the wood releases a lot of its flavors via gasses and steam without ever being fully ignited.  Any actual smoke has to pass upward through the coal bed (a 350 degree fire in a WSM is a pretty big fire) and that does a very serviceable job cleaning up any dirty smoke that may pass through.

Having to cook bbq with a choked down fire is the reason Aaron Franklin and Meathead are not fans of Kamados (meathead also hates them because they are difficult to do his beloved 2-zone cooking but we all know that it's easy once you understand how to do a reverse sear etc).

My opinion is the best smoke you can get in an oxygen starved environment (like a kamado) is to force the smoke upward through the coal bed. This will get you as close to cooking with a fully oxygenated wood fire as you can get in a kamado. And for most people, that's going to be really, really good. I get more "best brisket ever" off my egg in cooking classes than any other cooker I use. These people are not experts but who the hell is? And if they are, let them cook the damn brisket while you drink beer.

some light reading on the subject of clean smoke and how to get it:

https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/grill-and-smoker-setup-and-firing/what-you-need-know-about-wood-smoke-and

Karubecue has a BBQEDU section on their site. Read all of it.

https://kbq.us/bbq-edu-blog/orientation/

Here is a pdf of a talk Dr. Blonder gave to the NBBQA with the same info as his video on amazing ribs. If you are nerdy, you will likey.

https://www.genuineideas.com/Assets/imageassets/NBBQA Talk- 2015- Greg Blonder.pdf

Hope all this helps.

Tex

WOW! This is pure gold. Thank you so much for taking the time to put all of this down! 

When I first started egging, I would throw chunks on top of the coal bed just before I started cooking. That method produced some very dirty smoke and the food came out with an ashy, creosote vibe. Since then I've become more mindful of creating clean smoke. Recently, my method has been to fire up all the wood I'm planning to use in a chimney before putting it on the egg. Getting the chunks to fully combust before using them has certainly helped clean up the smoke, but it's still not as clean as an offset. Since you posted a few days back about burying the wood in the lump, I made some spare ribs and gave your technique a try. It was the cleanest smoke flavor I've had for sure! I still fired up the chunks in a chimney before burying them. That'll be my go-to method from here on out.

I'm curious to know, do you smoke on your offset anymore now that you've zeroed in on a way to produce clean smoke in the egg? How do you compare the offset to the egg? I would love to get one at some point, but right now I just don't have the time to sit there nursing a fire for a whole day (kids, work, etc prevents me). Recently, I got a Santa Maria grill, though, and that's been a very useful--and very educational--addition to my arsenal. It's taught me how to cook over a wood fire, and those lessons have been paying dividends with the egg. 

Lastly, do you teach cooking classes? If so, that's awesome. What's your focus? Got a website or anything?

I do cook on my kbq whenever I can. It’s a great cooker but like any other stick burning smoker, you have to manage the fire the entire cook. The fact is nothing beats cooking With 100% wood. Charcoal and kiln dried chunks will never match up to the flavor you get burning real (not Kiln dried) wood. 

Seasoned Wood is 30% water and that water mixes with the flavor compounds from the wood in the form of steam. That produces subtle flavors that you will never get with charcoal and chunks/chips. Btw- this is why I never use store bought chunks in my bge. I always cut down chunks from post oak firewood that has not been kiln dried. 

If someone were to ask me to make my best bbq, I would go to the kbq (or any stick burner) every time. 

My wife and I do teach cooking classes. Our most popular class is brisket on a bge but we teach all kinds of stuff bbq related and not. It’s a fun way to stay in the game without doing it for a living. That is hard work. We don’t have a website or social media presence. It’s a hobby and I don’t want to make it a job. 

If I do ever start an insta, I’ll make sure to Spam the hell out of you guys on here and give away some fire wires, t-shirts, or do a drawing for a competing cooker if you sign up!

unoriginalusername said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

bicktrav said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

sorry for the delay- that was one wild weekend and I fell asleep at 8:30 last night after all that!

I have spent a lot of time (and a bit of coin) chasing clean smoke. Anyone who has watched this Franklin Masterclass (or any of his free stuff on youtube) will quickly understand his message that a fully oxygenated fire delivers clean smoke and a fire starved of oxygen delivers dirty smoke.

In my search I came across a great article with correlating video of Dr. Greg Blonder on the pit master side of Amazing Ribs (the pay side). He basically broke down the science of fire, clean fire vs dirty fire, and how to achieve/avoid both. Basically, the same information as in the Franklin videos  but way more detailed on the "why" part (it was an hour long video just about the science of fire if I remember right). The point is: A fully oxygenated fire, is clean burning fire and will give you very clean smoke with all the flavor compounds and steam that you are looking for when bbqing. Since the entire premise behind low and slow kamodo cooking is to starve the fire of oxygen, it's impossible to have a fully oxygenated fire in there and keep temps low enough for smoking food (you fully oxygenate a kamado and you are at 1000 degrees in minutes). You have to choke off the oxygen and that makes any wood in there smolder and give off nasty "dirty" smoke. after watching this lecture I finally understood the limitations of cooking in a vessel that required me to choke off oxygen to the fire.

Now for the coin (stick with me, it will all come back to the BGE shortly). Once I realized that the only way to get clean smoke is to cook with a fully oxygenated fire, I knew I was going to have to buy an offset/wood burning smoker of some kind. In my search, I came across the Karubeque C-60 (it was mentioned in that Dr. Blonder video or advertised on the side bar or something like that). Meathead loves the kbq and mentions it often. I looked into it for months and decided it was the perfect fit for what I was looking for. 1- Full wood-burning pit, 2- small enough to throw in my pickup to take with me, and 3- would fit a lot of food in small package. The KBQ was built by an engineer in Dallas to address the issue with dirty smoke that is so common in people who cook with wood. He has an entire section of his site dedicated to clean smoke and I learned a ton from that too (link below). He addresses the dirty smoke issue by putting the fire box on top of the unit and has a fan draw the smoke down through the coal bed below. These uber-hot temps purify the smoke and only the good stuff (steam and flavenoids) pass through to the cook chamber. Pretty cool stuff.

Soooooo- how does this have anything to do with kamado cooking and clean smoke? Well, I figured that if smoke can be drawn down through the coal bed with a fan and be purified like in my KBQ, it can certainly go up (its natural path) through a coal bed and do the same, or at least similar in a kamado.  So if you place hot coals over your wood chunks in a BGE, the smoke from that wood has to pass upward through the hot lump and a lot of it gets purified and burns clean the same way it would in a fire that is fully oxygenated. It's not perfect but it is so much better than placing wood chunks on top of your hot lump and letting it smolder that most people could not tell the difference (BTW- I am not claiming in any way to be the first to think this or say this somewhere but I did come to it on my own after a lot of digging).

Another point of reference for me was a video I watched of Harry Soo cooking a hot and fast brisket at 350. He did that one in a WSM but the same theory would be true in a kamado. He actually puts the chunks in first, then adds lump, then adds a chimney full of burning lump on top of all that. The hot fire heats the wood underneath and the wood releases a lot of its flavors via gasses and steam without ever being fully ignited.  Any actual smoke has to pass upward through the coal bed (a 350 degree fire in a WSM is a pretty big fire) and that does a very serviceable job cleaning up any dirty smoke that may pass through.

Having to cook bbq with a choked down fire is the reason Aaron Franklin and Meathead are not fans of Kamados (meathead also hates them because they are difficult to do his beloved 2-zone cooking but we all know that it's easy once you understand how to do a reverse sear etc).

My opinion is the best smoke you can get in an oxygen starved environment (like a kamado) is to force the smoke upward through the coal bed. This will get you as close to cooking with a fully oxygenated wood fire as you can get in a kamado. And for most people, that's going to be really, really good. I get more "best brisket ever" off my egg in cooking classes than any other cooker I use. These people are not experts but who the hell is? And if they are, let them cook the damn brisket while you drink beer.

some light reading on the subject of clean smoke and how to get it:

https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/grill-and-smoker-setup-and-firing/what-you-need-know-about-wood-smoke-and

Karubecue has a BBQEDU section on their site. Read all of it.

https://kbq.us/bbq-edu-blog/orientation/

Here is a pdf of a talk Dr. Blonder gave to the NBBQA with the same info as his video on amazing ribs. If you are nerdy, you will likey.

https://www.genuineideas.com/Assets/imageassets/NBBQA Talk- 2015- Greg Blonder.pdf

Hope all this helps.

Tex

WOW! This is pure gold. Thank you so much for taking the time to put all of this down! 

When I first started egging, I would throw chunks on top of the coal bed just before I started cooking. That method produced some very dirty smoke and the food came out with an ashy, creosote vibe. Since then I've become more mindful of creating clean smoke. Recently, my method has been to fire up all the wood I'm planning to use in a chimney before putting it on the egg. Getting the chunks to fully combust before using them has certainly helped clean up the smoke, but it's still not as clean as an offset. Since you posted a few days back about burying the wood in the lump, I made some spare ribs and gave your technique a try. It was the cleanest smoke flavor I've had for sure! I still fired up the chunks in a chimney before burying them. That'll be my go-to method from here on out.

I'm curious to know, do you smoke on your offset anymore now that you've zeroed in on a way to produce clean smoke in the egg? How do you compare the offset to the egg? I would love to get one at some point, but right now I just don't have the time to sit there nursing a fire for a whole day (kids, work, etc prevents me). Recently, I got a Santa Maria grill, though, and that's been a very useful--and very educational--addition to my arsenal. It's taught me how to cook over a wood fire, and those lessons have been paying dividends with the egg. 

Lastly, do you teach cooking classes? If so, that's awesome. What's your focus? Got a website or anything?

I do cook on my kbq whenever I can. It’s a great cooker but like any other stick burning smoker, you have to manage the fire the entire cook. The fact is nothing beats cooking With 100% wood. Charcoal and kiln dried chunks will never match up to the flavor you get burning real (not Kiln dried) wood. 

Seasoned Wood is 30% water and that water mixes with the flavor compounds from the wood in the form of steam. That produces subtle flavors that you will never get with charcoal and chunks/chips. Btw- this is why I never use store bought chunks in my bge. I always cut down chunks from post oak firewood that has not been kiln dried. 

If someone were to ask me to make my best bbq, I would go to the kbq (or any stick burner) every time. 

My wife and I do teach cooking classes. Our most popular class is brisket on a bge but we teach all kinds of stuff bbq related and not. It’s a fun way to stay in the game without doing it for a living. That is hard work. We don’t have a website or social media presence. It’s a hobby and I don’t want to make it a job. 

If I do ever start an insta, I’ll make sure to Spam the hell out of you guys on here and give away some fire wires, t-shirts, or do a drawing for a competing cooker if you sign up!

Almost missed this. Ha    Ha    😊