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OT electrical question.

fishlessman
fishlessman Posts: 34,565
in EggHead Forum
can i hook up a 400 volt electrical heater with 50 hertz frequency to a transformer of 480 volts and 60 hertz without a meltdown.  its not a full time heater, 20 minutes 3 times
fukahwee maine

you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • johnnyp
    johnnyp Posts: 3,932
    @NPHuskerFL ?
    XL & MM BGE, 36" Blackstone - Newport News, VA
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  • Jupiter Jim
    Jupiter Jim Posts: 3,351
    I'm not 100% sure but I wouldn't, I was taught voltage has to match.
    I'm quite sure if it was a motor you would toast it, not sure about a purely resistive load, but I think the higher voltage would over heat the heating element. 

    I'm only hungry when I'm awake!

    Okeechobee FL. Winter

    West Jefferson NC Summer

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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    Jupiter Jim said:
    I'm not 100% sure but I wouldn't, I was taught voltage has to match.
    I'm quite sure if it was a motor you would toast it, not sure about a purely resistive load, but I think the higher voltage would over heat the heating element. 
    its a big bearing heater and im looking at midrange on the dial for heat.  the cycle is what has me concerned, 50 verse 60,  this thing has to be for a eurpean system but its getting rented out here. the transformer here is running off 208 3 phase so its probably not a true 480. 
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    NPHuskerFL said:
    Short answer.  No
    The voltage is not necessarily the biggest part but the frequency does make a huge difference. You did not mention if this is single or three phase. But at this point it really doesn't matter. Me personally I wouldn't do it. It would be one thing if you were going to be there 24/7 to observe it but I would consider this a fire hazard.
    I am not an electrician but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express😁
    it seems i get these jobs more often than not, friggin aggravating. hoping they sent the wrong pages from the wrong manual cause this isnt setup for use in the us.  my other option is a turkey fryer set up 20 feet in the air full of hot oil, not sure which is more dangerous =)
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • 1voyager
    1voyager Posts: 1,157
    No. This connection will create excess heat which may damage the unit and possibly start a fire. Also consider voltage spikes that would create even more heat. From rewiring one too many houses, I can tell you that making a connection the way you described would be a code violation in Indiana, Ohio, Georgia, California and Colorado.

    Having said that, would it work? Yes, but it is a dangerous solution. 
    Large Egg, PGS A40 gasser.
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  • abtaylor260
    abtaylor260 Posts: 242
    Big no. The frequency difference will have 50 hz will want to catch up to the 60 hz frequency and will melt kill the heater or trip a breaker. 
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  • DoubleEgger
    DoubleEgger Posts: 19,151
    Absolutely not. 
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  • lkapigian
    lkapigian Posts: 11,549
    edited October 2019
    resistive devices, frequency doesn't matter, if it were inductive ( motor ) it would vary the speed ...if this is forced air, the motor "MAY" have an issue albeit most are rated 50/60 HZ
    Visalia, Ca @lkapigian
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  • northGAcock
    northGAcock Posts: 15,173
    Will this be powering the Range Rover?
    Ellijay GA with a Medium & MiniMax

    Well, I married me a wife, she's been trouble all my life,
    Run me out in the cold rain and snow
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  • DoubleEgger
    DoubleEgger Posts: 19,151
    northGAcock said:
    Will this be powering the Range Rover?
    The dealership gets cold at night on that cot...
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  • nolaegghead
    nolaegghead Posts: 42,109
    If you were going to run it half way, shouldn't be a problem wiring it up to the 208 and running it full on.  Higher frequency does create higher resistance through the "skin effect", but it's negligible between 50 and 60 Hz
    ______________________________________________
    I love lamp..
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  • FarmingPhD
    FarmingPhD Posts: 849
    Best to get a direct answer from the manufacturer but this explanation made sense.

    https://www.pumpsandsystems.com/topics/motors/ac-power-part-two-voltage-versus-frequency-and-three-phase-curve

    The explanation at figure 2.  Again, I would contact the manufacturer directly and ask.  It’s been a long time since Ive done 3 phase calculations and even longer since I have seen the power equations derived.
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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • Eoin
    Eoin Posts: 4,304
    I'd give it a go, but have been known to blow stuff up in the past.
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  • NPHuskerFL
    NPHuskerFL Posts: 17,629
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    Well at least you didn't Google 
    Why did John Harvey Kellogg invent Corn Flakes? 😁

    LBGE 2013 & MM 2014
    Die Hard HUSKER & BRONCO FAN
    Flying Low & Slow in "Da Burg" FL
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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    Eoin said:
    I'd give it a go, but have been known to blow stuff up in the past.
    its not a good spot to have a fail,  i put a small metal platform up 20 feet by ladder to the top of the pump shaft. the bearings and couplings are over 200 pounds each and theres less than 10 seconds to get it off the heater and into place on the shaft before the bearing cools down. last thing i need is an electrocution up there.  and i really hate heights except for jumping outa an airplane
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    NPHuskerFL said:
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    Well at least you didn't Google 
    Why did John Harvey Kellogg invent Corn Flakes? 😁

    i believe ive come across that before
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • bigalsworth
    bigalsworth Posts: 686
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    So it is an induction heater?  With 208V 3-phase supply you won't get the heat you would if it was 480V 3-phase supply.
    Large BGE
    BBQ Guru DigiQ II

    Martensville, Saskatchewan Canada
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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    bigalsworth said:
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    So it is an induction heater?  With 208V 3-phase supply you won't get the heat you would if it was 480V 3-phase supply.
    i have a couple step up transformers, hoping it comes with a couple plugs and a whip to hard wire in. thats the easy stuff
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • bigalsworth
    bigalsworth Posts: 686
    fishlessman said:
    bigalsworth said:
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    So it is an induction heater?  With 208V 3-phase supply you won't get the heat you would if it was 480V 3-phase supply.
    i have a couple step up transformers, hoping it comes with a couple plugs and a whip to hard wire in. thats the easy stuff
    Sounds like you are all set.  How do you handle the bearings after heating?
    Large BGE
    BBQ Guru DigiQ II

    Martensville, Saskatchewan Canada
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  • fishlessman
    fishlessman Posts: 34,565
    bigalsworth said:
    fishlessman said:
    bigalsworth said:
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    So it is an induction heater?  With 208V 3-phase supply you won't get the heat you would if it was 480V 3-phase supply.
    i have a couple step up transformers, hoping it comes with a couple plugs and a whip to hard wire in. thats the easy stuff
    Sounds like you are all set.  How do you handle the bearings after heating?
    will make a cradle for the bearing and hoist it in by hand and mallet if it starts to shrink too fast, the shaft coupling is big. if two cant lift it ill probably get the heater as close to the shaft as possible and swing it it with a chainfall.  have never used this style heater before so not sure the actual cool  down rate, usually use hot oil with an overnight soak
    fukahwee maine

    you can lead a fish to water but you can not make him drink it
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  • poster
    poster Posts: 1,346
    how much is the interference fit? These always get everyone nervous around here. When things get stuck too early they cam become an $$$ nightmare real quick, or when whatever your putting on slides way past where it should have then sticks, don't ask me how I know
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  • DoubleEgger
    DoubleEgger Posts: 19,151
    edited October 2019
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    Don’t assume. I used to occasionally run into 50hz stuff in some manufacturing facilities that were European owned. We could adjust our diesel generators to run on 50hz and were the only ones who did that at the time. Our generator fleet was a “worldwide” fleet. 
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  • alaskanassasin
    alaskanassasin Posts: 8,897
    I cut all my bearings off with torches :-)
    South of Columbus, Ohio.


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  • bigalsworth
    bigalsworth Posts: 686
    fishlessman said:
    bigalsworth said:
    fishlessman said:
    bigalsworth said:
    fishlessman said:
    lots of googling and i found the induction heater online. looks like they make a 460v/60 hz system.  that has to be what they are actually going to rent me. now trying to get someone to go read the damn tag. anyways i now know more about 400 volt 50 hz systems that i should have never needed to know =)
    So it is an induction heater?  With 208V 3-phase supply you won't get the heat you would if it was 480V 3-phase supply.
    i have a couple step up transformers, hoping it comes with a couple plugs and a whip to hard wire in. thats the easy stuff
    Sounds like you are all set.  How do you handle the bearings after heating?
    will make a cradle for the bearing and hoist it in by hand and mallet if it starts to shrink too fast, the shaft coupling is big. if two cant lift it ill probably get the heater as close to the shaft as possible and swing it it with a chainfall.  have never used this style heater before so not sure the actual cool  down rate, usually use hot oil with an overnight soak
    I would expect the cool down rate to be the same based on the thermal mass.  Difference being that maybe this heater will get it hotter vs the oil bath?  It should heat it a lot quicker.
    Large BGE
    BBQ Guru DigiQ II

    Martensville, Saskatchewan Canada
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  • buzd504
    buzd504 Posts: 3,877
    fishlessman said:
    Eoin said:
    I'd give it a go, but have been known to blow stuff up in the past.
    its not a good spot to have a fail,  i put a small metal platform up 20 feet by ladder to the top of the pump shaft. the bearings and couplings are over 200 pounds each and theres less than 10 seconds to get it off the heater and into place on the shaft before the bearing cools down. last thing i need is an electrocution up there.  and i really hate heights except for jumping outa an airplane
    WTF is a sub guy doing jumping out of airplanes?
    NOLA
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  • Dollinger
    Dollinger Posts: 79
    If the secondary of the transformer is 208V and the heater is rated for 400V you will be ok on voltage. Since the frequency of an inductor is directly proportional to the frequency, the frequency will be be retarded more with 60 Hz so the current will be less. Therefore, you will not melt the heater since the power output will be less. However, you will get less than half the heat output with this setup.

    If the output of the transformer secondary is 480V then you will not be solid ground. However, since the frequency is higher, you may be ok since the increase in voltage will be compensated by the frequency seeing higher impedance. The frequency will lower the power output about 20% but the voltage will increase it by 20%. So it should be close to a wash. However, I wouldn't operate it unattended and I would check it to make sure it not overheating. 
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  • milesvdustin
    milesvdustin Posts: 2,882
    I would have a couple oxy acetylene torches to keep the bearing hot from heater to install so it doesnt shrink down and screw your operation up. 

    2 LBGE, Blackstone 36, Jumbo Joe

    Egging in Southern Illinois (Marion)

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  • theyolksonyou
    theyolksonyou Posts: 18,459
    I would just add a flux capacitor and crank it to 88.  Let her rip!
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