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OT - Gibson Guitars Facing Bankruptcy

2

Comments

  • DoubleEgger
    DoubleEgger Posts: 19,153
    I’m not a guitar guy but I wonder if getting raided by the Justice Dept led to their long term demise. I remember being in Nashville when they were raided. 
    https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department
     
  • Ladeback69
    Ladeback69 Posts: 4,484
    I know the plant that HD is closing is the one here in KC that makes the 883 I believe.  I have always wanted a Harley, but couldn't afford it.  The old bikes are holding there value and I think most people are buying older bikes now.  On Gibson having troubles that sucks.  Each guitar manufacture has distinct sound and the Les Paul is one of those as well as the SG and the Flying V.  I had a Fender Strat and a ESP Viper 301 that was a like a SG, but sold them when I wasn't playing them anymore and the wife asked me to seal them since they were just sitting around.  I didn't realize that Gibson had cut out the ma and pa shops.  That sucks, that's where I got my guitars and sold them.  You get better service there and the sales people knew what they were taking about.

    I remember going to see George Lynch from Dokken do a jam session, then a meet and greet at my local shop back in the early 2000's.  He smoked an amp when they were putting him though a small system.  They switched him to a Marshall stack and it was all good.  Wish I would have brought my video camera then.  ESP brought him in.  It was very cool when he did Voodoo Child.
    XL, WSM, Coleman Road Trip Gas Grill

    Kansas City, Mo.
  • johnnyp
    johnnyp Posts: 3,932
    I think any luxury-brand manufacturer will be in trouble if they can’t keep their product relevant for younger consumers. that includes the egg. Fortunately, for our brand of choice there Seems to be a trend toward a renewed focus on Home cooking.  (Millennial home buying, tbd)

    The modern consumer prioritizes convienience over quality and longevity.  In a world dominated by personal tech, why priotizing keeping a quality product long-term? The idea of obsolescence permeates buyer mindsets beyond technology purchases. 
    XL & MM BGE, 36" Blackstone - Newport News, VA
  • johnnyp
    johnnyp Posts: 3,932
    edited February 2018
    In reference to the eggs staying power, KJ has a much better social media presence.  Definitely looking to dominate all future searches.  You can see this in an expansive YouTube cooking library and fairly aggressive social media marketing 
    XL & MM BGE, 36" Blackstone - Newport News, VA
  • YukonRon
    YukonRon Posts: 17,261
    jonnymack said:GT
    Just FYI, Harley Davidson revenue is down 10% for YTD 2017 vs. YTD 2016 (through 9/30/2017). Not sure where the 81% thing is coming from. They are a profitable company with $769 million in pre-tax income for 9 mos 2017. That being said their debt load is tremendous which is concerning and their financing receivables are also scary to me. 
    Barons.
    "Knowledge is Good" - Emil Faber

    XL and MM
    Louisville, Kentucky
  • YukonRon
    YukonRon Posts: 17,261
    YukonRon said:
    jonnymack said:GT
    Just FYI, Harley Davidson revenue is down 10% for YTD 2017 vs. YTD 2016 (through 9/30/2017). Not sure where the 81% thing is coming from. They are a profitable company with $769 million in pre-tax income for 9 mos 2017. That being said their debt load is tremendous which is concerning and their financing receivables are also scary to me. 
    Barons.
    And this:

    Harley-Davidson to Close Kansas City Manufacturing Plant

    Rennie Scaysbrook | January 30, 2018

    Harley-Davidson to close Kansas City manufacturing plant—Harley-Davidson will close its manufacturing plant in Kansas City, Missouri, following a sharp drop in sales in the final quarter of 2017.

    Harley_Davidson_fourth_quarter_sales_report
    The fourth-quarter of 2017 was not a good one for Harley-Davidson.

    The company released its fourth-quarter report this morning (January 30), and said its net income dropped 82 percent in its fiscal fourth quarter to $8.3 million compared to $47.2 million in 2016.

    “Harley-Davidson plans to further improve its manufacturing operations and cost structure by commencing a multi-year manufacturing optimization initiative anchored by the consolidation of its motorcycle assembly plant in Kansas City, Mo. into its plant in York, Pa,” a statement from the company read. “The company expects to incur restructuring and other consolidation costs of $170 to $200 million and capital investment of approximately $75 million over the next two years and expects ongoing annual cash savings of $65 to $75 million after 2020.”

    The decision to close the Kansas City plant means around 800 workers will be out of a job.

    “The decision to consolidate our final assembly plants was made after very careful consideration of our manufacturing footprint and the appropriate capacity given the current business environment. Our Kansas City assembly operations will leave a legacy of safety, quality, collaboration and manufacturing leadership,” said Matt Levatich, president and chief executive officer, Harley-Davidson, Inc.

    As for Harley-Davidson share earnings were five cents per share, which is down from 27 cents per share in 2016, although revenue was up to $1.23 billion, compared to $1.11 the previous year.

    Part of the reason for the earning drop came via a $53.1 million tax charge relating to President Trump’s enactment of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, as well as a $29.4 pre-tax charge for a product recall.

    Overall, Harley-Davidson’s worldwide retail motorcycle sales fell 6.7 percent compared to 2016, with U.S. sales down 8.5 percent and international sales down 3.9 percent.

    On the plus side, the company maintained its number one 601+cc motorcycle market share position in countries including the U.S., Canada, Japan, Australia, and India for 2017, with 57 new international dealer points added to the network.

    “Our actions to address the current environment through disciplined supply and cost management position us well as we drive to achieve our long-term objectives to build the next generation of Harley- Davidson riders globally,” said Levatich. “We finished 2017 with over 32,000 more Harley-Davidson riders in the U.S. than one year ago, and we delivered another year of strong cash generation and cash returns to our shareholders.”

    Source: USA Today


    "Knowledge is Good" - Emil Faber

    XL and MM
    Louisville, Kentucky
  • Carolina Q
    Carolina Q Posts: 14,831
    Love this commercial. RIP, Les Paul.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDxCQ7oJJZ8

    I hate it when I go to the kitchen for food and all I find are ingredients!                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

    Michael 
    Central Connecticut 

  • Gibson is slowly pricing itself out of relevancy. Their competition has been producing guitars that play, look and sound as good if not better than Gibsons......for half of the Gibson price point. They're marketing mystique and cachet, and have lost sight on building instruments that live up to the cachet.  
    Living the good life smoking and joking
  • YukonRon
    YukonRon Posts: 17,261
    Gibson was Rock and Roll, back when artists put together meaningful albums, unlike today's cache of independent dribble that is produced.
    Say what you will about Gibson these days, but an SG or a Les Paul or others, made Rock and Roll. BB King has to be rolling in his grave. 
    "Knowledge is Good" - Emil Faber

    XL and MM
    Louisville, Kentucky
  • YukonRon said:
    Say what you will about Gibson these days, but an SG or a Les Paul or others, made Rock and Roll.  
    Agree - absolute icons. The 4 Les Pauls and 2 SGs I own are rock solid guitars that I will never part with. 

    Some of Henry J's business decisions have been dubious at best, and now it's coming back to haunt Gibson. 
    Living the good life smoking and joking
  • DoubleEgger
    DoubleEgger Posts: 19,153
    The problem sounds widespread. Guitar Center likely won’t last through the end of the year before filing. Their credit was downgraded to CCC- late last year. 
  • The problem sounds widespread. Guitar Center likely won’t last through the end of the year before filing. Their credit was downgraded to CCC- late last year. 
    And Gibson is fully entwined with Guitar Center - a perfect storm.
    Living the good life smoking and joking
  • Eoin
    Eoin Posts: 4,304
    GrillSgt said:
    So I cranked up the old Googleator and it appears that the millenials are to blame. Ridership is down for that demographic and they have made it clear they don't want to be seen as a Harley kind of guy. HD is now concentrating on a shotgun approach trying to appeal to youth, seniors, women and non-caucasians.
    Here, the Govt has radically increased the training requirements to get a full bike licence, making it expensive and hard work. Youngsters can ride scooters easily, but rarely seem to move onto bigger bikes. Waiting for warmer weather, then I'll be out and about on 2 wheels.
  • HeavyG
    HeavyG Posts: 10,380
    YukonRon said:
    Harley Davidson is next. They are closing another mfg site and shifting that work to their other facility in PA.
     Revenue was down 81% in 2017, and that followed a dismal 2016.
    I guess the upper middle class white male going through a mid life crisis crowd has moved on from Harleys. 
    As Boomers age out and interest in a bunch of products declines I'm sure we can see a lot of companies hitting the skids.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” ― Philip K. Diçk




  • SmokingPiney
    SmokingPiney Posts: 2,319
    edited February 2018
    HeavyG said:
    YukonRon said:
    Harley Davidson is next. They are closing another mfg site and shifting that work to their other facility in PA.
     Revenue was down 81% in 2017, and that followed a dismal 2016.
    I guess the upper middle class white male going through a mid life crisis crowd has moved on from Harleys. 
    As Boomers age out and interest in a bunch of products declines I'm sure we can see a lot of companies hitting the skids.
    And time moves on. Adaptive companies can survive. Those living on past laurels with a blind eye to current marketing will fade.

    Gibson has been living on past laurels for far too long without innovation (and pricing) that markets well. They have dug themselves a huge hole to climb out of. 
    Living the good life smoking and joking
  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 19,780
    Legume said:
    YukonRon said:
    Harley Davidson is next. They are closing another mfg site and shifting that work to their other facility in PA.
     Revenue was down 81% in 2017, and that followed a dismal 2016.
    Would be a shame if that happens, but wow what a rapid decline for them.  Not that long ago I remember them being a stock that was recommended.  
    Not their first near death experience though, weren’t they nearly dead in th 80s?
     Very possible.  I haven’t really paid much attention to them (I understand statistics too well to be a motorcycle guy), but I remember the stock recommendation from maybe 5-10 years ago.
    When my niece was a toddler, her aunt (my other sister) taught her to identify helmetless riders as organ donors. 

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
  • bgebrent
    bgebrent Posts: 19,636
    caliking said:
    Legume said:
    YukonRon said:
    Harley Davidson is next. They are closing another mfg site and shifting that work to their other facility in PA.
     Revenue was down 81% in 2017, and that followed a dismal 2016.
    Would be a shame if that happens, but wow what a rapid decline for them.  Not that long ago I remember them being a stock that was recommended.  
    Not their first near death experience though, weren’t they nearly dead in th 80s?
     Very possible.  I haven’t really paid much attention to them (I understand statistics too well to be a motorcycle guy), but I remember the stock recommendation from maybe 5-10 years ago.
    When my niece was a toddler, her aunt (my other sister) taught her to identify helmetless riders as organ donors. 
    In my line, they all are.  In the ER bikes are called donorcycles.
    Sandy Springs & Dawsonville Ga
  • GregW
    GregW Posts: 2,678
    YukonRon said:
    Harley Davidson is next. They are closing another mfg site and shifting that work to their other facility in PA.
     Revenue was down 81% in 2017, and that followed a dismal 2016.
    I think Harley has been circling the drain for a while. The younger riders just aren't interested in them. The hipsters seem to be buying old beater bikes from the 70's and doing minimal work to them just to get them ride-able. That's at least what's going on in my area.  
  • bgebrent said:
    caliking said:
    Legume said:
    YukonRon said:
    Harley Davidson is next. They are closing another mfg site and shifting that work to their other facility in PA.
     Revenue was down 81% in 2017, and that followed a dismal 2016.
    Would be a shame if that happens, but wow what a rapid decline for them.  Not that long ago I remember them being a stock that was recommended.  
    Not their first near death experience though, weren’t they nearly dead in th 80s?
     Very possible.  I haven’t really paid much attention to them (I understand statistics too well to be a motorcycle guy), but I remember the stock recommendation from maybe 5-10 years ago.
    When my niece was a toddler, her aunt (my other sister) taught her to identify helmetless riders as organ donors. 
    In my line, they all are.  In the ER bikes are called donorcycles.
    My cop buddy calls those short skull helmets brain scoops.  
  • Possumtrot
    Possumtrot Posts: 245
    edited February 2018
    Harley sales have been dropping for some time.  I quit riding in 2013 after 40+ yrs of riding and enjoyed HD, BMW, Honda and several others with a lot of miles between them in several states and countries.  But seems like fewer and fewer people are interested anymore and the really expensive bikes are just getting more so.  Enjoyed it while it lasted.  Met some really good people via motorcycles ( @The_Stache is one, maybe debatably, LOL ) and have found the Egghead community is very similar.
    Anyway, Harley's sales are way, way off from the 90's and 2000's.  IMO did it to themselves.  Just like Nascar, NHRA and some others I can think of - made it while they could but no valid plan for future fans.



    Near Music City in the Boro
    LBGE, Joe,Jr
    Free is better than cheap
    If it's worth telling, it's worth exaggerating


  • stompbox
    stompbox Posts: 729
    Gibson:
    - Current and last owner are dinosaur @ssholes.  Norton era guitars were embarrassing at times, boat anchor lifeless slugs.
    - they screwed mom and pop stores
    - even the highest selling stores online were greatly hindered by Gibson not allowing them to post photos of the individual guitars for a spell.
    - rediculous minimum purchase amounts for stores
    - prices are absurd, keep going up but quality has never been great.  Final setups suck.
    - when they attempt innovation, it is embarrassingly horrible.  See robotuners.
    - rock and roll is increasingly dying, they are still living off Jimmy Page and Duane Allman.... Current guitarists like Warren Haynes hasn’t made a splash for buyers.
    - Quite frankly, there a lot better options these days and for less money.  LOTS of quality luthiers out there.
    - cheap guitars really aren’t that bad anymore.  With CNC and other processes, cheap guitars can be great with some basic hardware changes for example.


    All that said, I just picked up a 335 for a tune because they are closing the Memphis factory and shipped all those guitars off dirt cheap to be sold about 50% off.
  • stompbox said:
    Gibson:
    - Current and last owner are dinosaur @ssholes.  Norton era guitars were embarrassing at times, boat anchor lifeless slugs.
    - they screwed mom and pop stores
    - even the highest selling stores online were greatly hindered by Gibson not allowing them to post photos of the individual guitars for a spell.
    - rediculous minimum purchase amounts for stores
    - prices are absurd, keep going up but quality has never been great.  Final setups suck.
    - when they attempt innovation, it is embarrassingly horrible.  See robotuners.
    - rock and roll is increasingly dying, they are still living off Jimmy Page and Duane Allman.... Current guitarists like Warren Haynes hasn’t made a splash for buyers.
    - Quite frankly, there a lot better options these days and for less money.  LOTS of quality luthiers out there.
    - cheap guitars really aren’t that bad anymore.  With CNC and other processes, cheap guitars can be great with some basic hardware changes for example.


    All that said, I just picked up a 335 for a tune because they are closing the Memphis factory and shipped all those guitars off dirt cheap to be sold about 50% off.
    You mean “Norlin”? I had a ‘73 SG from this period, and while it could have benefitted from better fit and finish, it sounded absolutely incredible. 
  • bgebrent
    bgebrent Posts: 19,636
    Saddens me.  First electric was a 76 SG.  Then added a 78 Silverburst Les Paul Custom.  Both were great guitars.  Sold them both in lean years and regret that now.  Great axes.
    Sandy Springs & Dawsonville Ga
  • stompbox
    stompbox Posts: 729
    stompbox said:
    Gibson:
    - Current and last owner are dinosaur @ssholes.  Norton era guitars were embarrassing at times, boat anchor lifeless slugs.
    - they screwed mom and pop stores
    - even the highest selling stores online were greatly hindered by Gibson not allowing them to post photos of the individual guitars for a spell.
    - rediculous minimum purchase amounts for stores
    - prices are absurd, keep going up but quality has never been great.  Final setups suck.
    - when they attempt innovation, it is embarrassingly horrible.  See robotuners.
    - rock and roll is increasingly dying, they are still living off Jimmy Page and Duane Allman.... Current guitarists like Warren Haynes hasn’t made a splash for buyers.
    - Quite frankly, there a lot better options these days and for less money.  LOTS of quality luthiers out there.
    - cheap guitars really aren’t that bad anymore.  With CNC and other processes, cheap guitars can be great with some basic hardware changes for example.


    All that said, I just picked up a 335 for a tune because they are closing the Memphis factory and shipped all those guitars off dirt cheap to be sold about 50% off.
    You mean “Norlin”? I had a ‘73 SG from this period, and while it could have benefitted from better fit and finish, it sounded absolutely incredible. 
    Yes.  Thanks autocorrect ;)

    i played many Norlin’s and owned one (a custom).  Not everyone is a dud, but mine sure was.  It weighed in somewhere around 12 pounds and was lifeless.  Not to mention the horrible clownburst paint job.


  • Zippylip
    Zippylip Posts: 4,768
    edited February 2018
    ksmyrl said:
    I’m not a guitar guy but had 2 Harley’s in my 20s and 30s. When my buddy went down (right in front of me) avoiding a driver talking on his cell phone I decided life was too short to take the risk. Loved riding though. Sold the bike and bought a boat.
    pretty much the same history here, except the accident I saw occurred when a deer jumped out of a bush on the oncoming traffic side which startled the driver coming towards us enough that he steered his car directly into our lane causing a head on collision with a Suburban that was in front of me.  In slow motion I saw the undercarriage of the Suburban as it went completely vertical with the front end maybe 5 feet off the ground.  I stopped & called 911, the guy in the truck got out bleeding from his head clearly in shock, just staggering around while the guy that caused the accident appeared dead in the driver's seat. 

    You know when you ride you have to constantly anticipate the idiots turning left and/or shooting out of everywhere in front of you, comes with the territory but it was at that moment that I realized no amount of planning, caution, defensive driving and otherwise 'skill' could anticipate/prevent mother nature from intervening.  The dude in the land yacht barely survived, had he been on a Harley he'd have been pulverized. 

    Following that episode which was in late fall I parked my super glide in the garage & didn't touch it until Spring when I rode it to the auto tag place to sell it

    Edit: I still miss it, like Marlboros, and every so often I'll stop by the dealership just to check out what's new.  Last time I was there maybe a few months ago I was sitting on a new Dyna something or other & was thinking how cool it looked & felt, then I took a gander at the tag & nearly sh!t myself, 30k.  Harley has smoked too much of its own Koolaid powder
    happy in the hut
    West Chester Pennsylvania
  • stompbox
    stompbox Posts: 729

    Reports over the weekend indicated that Gibson, the preeminent instrument manufacturer famous for developing some of the most popular early electric guitar models, might go bankrupt as early as this summer. The issue seemed to be an inability to refinance the company’s bonds, which would result in the company being forced to pay an untenable $145 million in bank loans in July. The crisis comes following the departure of the company’s former chief financial officer Bill Lawrence after a tenure of less than a year.

    Gibson, which opened in 1902 as a guitar and mandolin manufacturing company, has now issued a statement clarifying that it has “met all current obligations to the bondholders” and that the company is working with an investment bank to find an alternative “credit facility.” The company also says it is confident that all bonds can be “refinanced in the ordinary course of business.” Gibson and its subsidiary companies focus on pro audio equipment as well as a wide variety of musical instrument brands, and according to CEO Henry Juszkiewicz–quoted in the company’s statement–both regions are “profitable” but performing “below the level of success we saw several years ago.”

    “We have been monetizing assets like stock holdings, real property and business segments that could not achieve the level of success we expected,” Juszkiewicz continued. “By monetizing these assets, we can reduce debt and generate funds to contribute to business segments that are thriving.” Gibson’s statement offered no details as to which segments of the company’s business they were planning on scaling back.

    “With the refinancing and the improvement in operating performance from the actions that we are rolling out, we expect the company to be organized for success and growth for years to come,” Juszkiewicz concluded.

  • westernbbq
    westernbbq Posts: 2,490
    Times they are a changin'
  • pasoegg
    pasoegg Posts: 449

    would be a real shame to see them fold up the tents...a lot of talented folks working there that would be hard to replace later on.....

    "it is never too early to drink, but it may be too early to be seen drinking"

    Winston-Salem, NC