johnkitchens said:

So what kind of lump do you guys recommend?

Cowboys 

billt01 said:

g8golfer said:

johnkitchens said:

So what kind of lump do you guys recommend?

Cowboys 

Man...Kingsford is the bomb!!

With a lot of lighter fluid! 

nolaegghead said:

Toxarch said:

Johnny Drug Dealer or Joe Whackjob can not "freely obtain the weapon of their choice at the local gun show" from a licensed dealer. It's illegal for them to obtain it and illegal for the gun dealer to sell it to them. And if you think there is no regulation whatsoever, then you clearly know nothing about gun regulation in the United States and you should stop trying to add an opinion on it, because you are just repeating someone else's opinion that you heard.
Before you try to bring it up in a discussion, perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them.
Liberal politicians love to throw out scary terms so the people who voted for them will be scared. But the educated know it's all BS.

Couple of questions based on what you said above, I guess you're an "educated" person. 

1. Can only licensed dealers sell guns at gun shows?
2. If question 1 above is not true, can private, unlicensed individuals sell guns at gun shows?
3. If question 2 is true, does federal law require those sellers to report the sale or do a background check?
4. If the answer to question 3 is no, then how is this not a loophole?
5. What exactly is your definition of "educated"?  I think you might think that means something else.

1. References

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38. H.R. 96
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40. H.R. 2324
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48. H.R. 141
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54. "H.R.1612". congress.gov. Retrieved 19 April 2017.
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56. Chumley, Cheryl K. (August 19, 2013). "Illinois Passes Gun Law Requiring Citizen Sellers to Do Background Checks". The Washington Times. Retrieved November 9, 2016.
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60. Anderson, Ric (November 9, 2016). "Ballot Question Closing Background Check Loophole Passes in Nevada". Las Vegas Sun. Retrieved November 9, 2016. The measure makes private transactions subject to the same legal requirement as purchases involving licensed dealers, for which federal background checks are necessary.
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62. Wintemute, Garen J.; Braga, Anthony A.; Kennedy, David M. (August 5, 2010). "Private-Party Gun Sales, Regulation, and Public Safety". The New England Journal of Medicine. Massachusetts Medical Society. 363 (6): 508–511. doi:10.1056/NEJMp1006326. PMID 20592291. Retrieved 26 June 2014.
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64. "18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts". LII / Legal Information Institute. Retrieved 2016-01-09.
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66. "Code of Federal Regulations". Legal Information Institute, Cornell University School of Law. U.S. Federal Register. Retrieved 4 March 2015.
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68. "18 U.S.C. 922". Legal Information Institute, Cornell University School of Law. Retrieved 4 March 2015.
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70. Masters, Jonathan (July 15, 2013). "U.S. Gun Policy: Global Comparisons". cfr.org. Retrieved January 29, 2015.
71. 
    
72. Steele, Cameron (February 15, 2013). "Sheriff Bailey, Chief Monroe: Close gun show loophole". ncpa.org. Retrieved January 29, 2015.
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74. "Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Records Required (Licensees) - ATF". atf.gov. Retrieved 7 March 2015.
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76. "FFL Newsletter" (PDF). Federal Firearms Licensee Information Service. February 2011. Retrieved 6 March 2015.
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78. U.S. Department of the Treasury, U.S. Department of Justice (January 1999). "Gun Shows: Brady Checks and Crime Gun Traces" (PDF). atf.gov. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). Retrieved June 27, 2014.
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82. Cox, Chris W. (January 21, 2010). "The War on Gun Shows". nraila.org. National Rifle Association of America Institute for Legislative Action. Retrieved July 6, 2014.
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84. Olinger, David (February 13, 2000). "Dealers live for gun shows". Denverpost.com. Retrieved January 29, 2015.
85. 
    
86. Baum, Dan (June 8, 2000). "What I saw at the gun show". rollingstone.com. Retrieved January 30, 2015.
87. 
    
88. "ATF: Brady Law". Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). 2015. Archived from the original on September 26, 2014.
89. 
    
90. "National Tracing Center". Firearms tracing is the systematic tracking of the movement of a firearms recovered by law enforcement officials from its first sale by the manufacturer or importer through the distribution chain (wholesaler/retailer) to the first retail purchaser.
91. 
    
92. Harlow, Caroline Wolf (November 2001). "Firearm Use by Offenders" (PDF). Bureau of Justice Statistics. U.S. Department of Justice. Retrieved February 10, 2015.
93. 
    
94. "Gun Shows:Brady checks and crime gun traces" (PDF). atf.gov. The department of justice & The department of treasury. Retrieved 4 March 2015.
95. 
    
96. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
97. 
    
98. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.30
99. 
    
100. "Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers" (PDF). Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). June 2000. Archived from the original (PDF) on March 31, 2003.
101. 
     
102. "Firearms Trafficking: U.S. Efforts to Combat Arms Trafficking to Mexico Face Planning and Coordination Challenges" (PDF). gao.gov. United States Government Accountability Office (GAO). June 2009. GAO-09-709. Retrieved June 24, 2014.
103. 
     
104. Clinton, William J. (November 6, 1998). "Memorandum on Preventing Firearms Sales to Prohibited Purchasers" (PDF). gpo.gov.
105. 
     
106. Duggan, Paul (March 16, 2000). "Gun-Friendly Governor". Washington Post. Retrieved 12 September 2015.
107. 
     
108. Baum, Dan. "Bush & Guns: The art of the double deal". rollingstone.com. Retrieved 9 September 2015.
109. 
     
110. Yardley, Jim (August 7, 2000). "THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: THE GUN ISSUE; Bush Stand Is Used to Turn Election Into a Showdown". The New York Times. Retrieved 10 September 2015.
111. 
     
112. "The NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007". bjs.gov. Bureau of Justice. Retrieved 16 September 2015.
113. 
     
114. "Report to the President on issues raised by the Virginia Tech tragedy" (PDF). justice.gov. Retrieved 16 September 2015.
115. 
     
116. Spetalnick, Matt; Mason, Jeff (January 16, 2013). "Obama's sweeping gun control agenda: Assault weapons ban, mandatory background checks". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 14 September 2015.
117. 
     
118. "Now Is the Time: The President's Plan to Protect our Children and our Communities by Reducing Gun Violence" (PDF). Washingtonpost.com. Washington Post. Retrieved 14 September 2015.
119. 
     
120. Halloran, Liz. "Even Post-Sandy Hook, Politics Suggest Prospects Dim For Obama's Gun Plan". npr.org. National Public Radio. Retrieved 14 September 2015.
121. 
     
122. Martinez, Michael (January 28, 2013). "'Universal background check:' What does it mean?". CNN US. Retrieved July 7, 2014.
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124. "Gun Shows in America – Tupperware® Parties for Criminals". vpc.org. Retrieved 30 September 2015.
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126. "Gun Shows in America Tupperware® Parties for Criminals". VPC.org. VPC. Retrieved 8 August 2015.
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128. "Gun Shows in America Tupperware® Parties for Criminals". VPC.org. VPC. Retrieved 7 August 2015.
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130. "Closing the Gun Show Loophole Principles for Effective Legislation". VPC.org. VPC. Retrieved 7 August 2015.
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132. Wintemute, Garen J. (2013). "Comprehensive Background Checks for Firearm Sales: Evidence from Gun Shows". In Webster, Daniel W.; Vernick, Jon S. Reducing Gun Violence in America. Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-1-4214-1110-1. Retrieved July 1, 2014.
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134. Halloran, Liz (January 30, 2013). "LaPierre Fights To Stop The 'Nightmare' Of Background Checks". Retrieved 28 July 2015.
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136. LaPierre, Wayne (May 27, 1999). "Statement of Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President, National Rifle Association". commdocs.house.gov (Testimony). Washington, D.C. Retrieved July 4, 2014.
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138. Kopel, Dave (July 16, 1999). "Gun Shows Under Attack". nraila.org. National Rifle Association of American Institute for Legislative Action. Retrieved February 5, 2015.
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140. Kopel, David (January 10, 2000). "The Facts about Gun Shows". cato.org. Retrieved February 5, 2015.
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142. DeConde, Alexander (2003). "School Shootings and Gun Shows". Gun Violence in America: The Struggle for Control. Northeastern University. p. 277. ISBN 1-55553-592-5. OCLC 249850830.
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144. Johnson, Nicholas J. (January 13, 2009). "Imagining Gun Control in America: Understanding the Remainder Problem": 837–891. Retrieved June 24, 2014.
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146. Vice, Daniel R.; Long, Robyn; Eftekhari, Elika (January 2010). "President Obama's First Year: Failed Leadership, Lost Lives" (PDF). Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Retrieved February 10, 2015.
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148. Sherfinski, David (January 31, 2013). "NRA head wary on background checks, wants better instant check system". Washington Times. Retrieved July 7, 2014.
149. 
     
150. Plumer, Brad (January 16, 2013). "Obama wants universal background checks for gun buyers. Is that feasible?". Washingtonpost.com. Retrieved 14 September 2015.
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152. Keefe, Mark A. (October 1, 2009). "The Truth About Gun Shows". nraila.org. National Rifle Association of America Institute for Legislative Action. Retrieved January 29, 2015.
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154. Kalesan, Bindu; Mobily, Matthew E; Keiser, Olivia; Fagan, Jeffrey A; Galea, Sandro (April 2016). "Firearm legislation and firearm mortality in the USA: a cross-sectional, state-level study". The Lancet. 387 (10030): 1847–1855. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(15)01026-0.
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158. National Conference of State Legislatures (June 1, 2000). "Colorado After Columbine The Gun Debate". The Free Library by Farlex. Gale Group.
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160. "No Questions Asked: Background Checks, Gun Shows, and Crime" (PDF). Americans for Gun Safety Foundation. April 1, 2001.
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162. DuBose, Ben (February 1, 2008). "Senators aim to close gun-show loophole". LA Times. Retrieved 15 September 2015.
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164. "One year after tragedy, debate rages over solutions". USA Today. Associated Press. April 12, 2008. Retrieved January 27, 2015.
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166. Alfano, Sean (April 19, 2007). "Va. Tech Killer Bought 2nd Gun Online". CBS Interactive. Archived from the original on February 5, 2015. Retrieved February 5, 2015.
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do you evah sleep

billt01 said:

I believe in God, I am a Christian. The values and morals in today's American society are still based on the values in the Bible. What is happening in society  today is people don't go to church, they don't believe there is anything after they leave here (earth). If you truly believe this is the end of the story, why not do whatever the hell you want to while your here. Be as evil as you want to be because there will be no repercussions or judgments upon anyone when they die. Most kids have no religion, and I'm not saying my way is the right way.It is what I chose to believe. Kids today need SOMETHING as a solid base, a good base of right and wrong. Today most people have a WIDE grey line to determine what is right and what is wrong. So much so it becomes almost indistinguishable to determine the difference. When there is not a solid foundation for society, everyone can see the outcome.  


If you went to a shrink, I bet they would tell you the Christian foundation you were raised in currently has a root in your being. Even though you may not "drink the kool-aid" anymore, you still live your life based on a solid foundation. Which makes you a good person; I believe, even though we have never met.

@billt01

I believe all humans have the inalienable right to believe in whatever they want, be it magic or nationalism, anarchy or socialism.  Trying to control thought and belief leads to the situation in N Korea or the story in Orwell's book Nineteen Eighty Four.

There are 4200 religions and all of them think theirs is the only true religion.  I understand where they came from and why they exist today.  Man want answers to the inexplicable.  "Where does the sun go at night?"  "Why did my son get sick?"   "Why doesn't it rain?" 

Most of these religions originated from older religions, and from times when we had much less in the way of answers to our environment.   This has changed.  People should question indoctrination.  I did.  However, that's not important here.

What is important is the notion that morality *must* come from a higher power has no logical standing if you are a student of history and facts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaGqVbAzjng

In fact, religion has been used as a tool for some of the most despotic acts of man on man.  It has been the foundation of war, terrorism, theft and, throughout history, well documented antithetical behavior to the detriment of millions of people, their lives and their well being.

I appreciate your honesty, and I believe in right and wrong.  Everyone establishes their moral code based on their life experiences and education.

Speaking of Christianity, the religious right seems to advocate for a world antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.  Rather than feed a beggar, tell that beggar he's lazy and get a fvcking job!  Man uses religion as a tool to corrupt the tenants of, what most of us would agree, is "good" behavior, in effect, to excuse "bad" behavior.  That is wrong to me.  I stand on high, unmagical ground.

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

DMW said:

Toxarch said:

DMW said:

Well regulated militia...

The Right of the People...

https://youtu.be/P4zE0K22zH8

Yep, absolutely concrete logic there. You've convinced me. There should be no regulation whatsoever on which people can have guns. Let's make sure we don't infringe on the rights of Johnny drug dealer or Joe whackjob to freely obtain the weapon of their choice at the local gun show...

...

Before you try to bring it up in a discussion, perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them...

Sure there is. Federal law only requires background checks when sales are conducted via a FFL holder. Not all sales at all gun shows are conducted between FFL holders. Sales between private individuals do not require background checks in most states.

Some gun shows do require all sales to involve background checks in spite of federal rules but I don't believe those are the majority of shows.

Take a video camera to a gun show. Buy a gun without a background check. Upload the video and you'll be rich from all the views and licensed use of the video.

And you should look at the laws for licensed carry in some of those green states. In California, you can not carry a gun within 100 yards of a government official. Anyone who works for the city is a government official. In Colorado, a licensed concealed carrier most pull out the gun and hold it in the open for all to see before entering ANY building. So wave your gun around before walking into your house with it. These are laws for legal gun carriers who have gone through extensive background and fingerprint checks.

I'm not really sure what your point is. The simple fact is that the gunshow loophole does exist. Not all gunshows require background checks between private sellers.

I haven't been to a local (Virginia) gunshow in many years so I thought I would look up what might actually be required these days.

One of the larger gun show operators (Showmasters Gun Shows) has this to say about private sales during one of their shows (hint - they don't require background checks):

What are the laws concerning the private sale of a handgun? 

• To privately sell a firearm, it is recommended that you safeguard information pertaining to the transaction such as the date the firearm was sold, the complete name and address of the buyer, and the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The seller and buyer of a handgun must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs.  Should the firearm ever be located at a crime scene, trace of the firearm will determine the licensed dealer who last sold the firearm and will identify the last buyer of the firearm. To have your name removed from this process, you may consider placing your firearm on consignment with a licensed dealer. This will also ensure that the firearm is transferred only to a lawfully eligible individual.

***

In 2016 the Virginia legislature took the bold action of dealing with background checks in private sales at gun shows by establishing rules that allowed private sellers to VOLUNTARILY request background checks on the people they were selling to.

How well has that worked out?:

"A new state law that expanded criminal background checks — all voluntary — for the private sale of firearms at Virginia gun shows may not be yielding the results that supporters had envisioned when it was crafted last year as part of a bipartisan gun safety deal.

During the first full year of the measure ending June 30, only 54 voluntary background checks were requested by private sellers of firearms or their customers at 77 gun shows across the state. And of those, only one prospective gun buyer was denied the purchase of a gun, and he was never charged with an offense.

By comparison, 39,738 mandatory criminal background checks were performed by federally licensed firearms dealers on their customers at gun shows between July 1, 2016, and June 30, resulting in 325 denials, according to newly released data from the Virginia Firearms Transaction Center, which is operated by the Virginia State Police."

***

So, tell me again how your spouting that "perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them." is not just fake news.

So because it is not illegal, it surely must happen. It's not illegal for me to toss the keys to my dog and let him drive the tractor. Does that mean it happens? According to your logic, it must happen all the time. Your example even shows that there were no illegal firearm sales made by individuals at a gun show.

Again, I have no idea what you're on about.

Let's keep it simple:

1) You said there is no such thing as a gun show loophole as it is just some made up liberal bs.

2) You are wrong.

Simple enough?

While you're at it Tox, you never followed up with the info for me regarding my CCP in CO.  Can you please post the info showing that I have to display my gun before I enter a building.  

My 12 years of Catholic education taught me to ask for proof when I see things that seem inaccurate.  That's ironic in a way, because they were teaching a lot of stuff that seemed inaccurate to me and that didn't hold up very well to proof.

Signed, a liberal recovered Catholic with a concealed carry permit.

PS - all you gotta do is admit that whatever garbage source you got your information from was incorrect.  Don't waste time defending the indefensible.

nolaegghead said:

billt01 said:

I believe in God, I am a Christian. The values and morals in today's American society are still based on the values in the Bible. What is happening in society  today is people don't go to church, they don't believe there is anything after they leave here (earth). If you truly believe this is the end of the story, why not do whatever the hell you want to while your here. Be as evil as you want to be because there will be no repercussions or judgments upon anyone when they die. Most kids have no religion, and I'm not saying my way is the right way.It is what I chose to believe. Kids today need SOMETHING as a solid base, a good base of right and wrong. Today most people have a WIDE grey line to determine what is right and what is wrong. So much so it becomes almost indistinguishable to determine the difference. When there is not a solid foundation for society, everyone can see the outcome.  


If you went to a shrink, I bet they would tell you the Christian foundation you were raised in currently has a root in your being. Even though you may not "drink the kool-aid" anymore, you still live your life based on a solid foundation. Which makes you a good person; I believe, even though we have never met.

@billt01

I believe all humans have the inalienable right to believe in whatever they want, be it magic or nationalism, anarchy or socialism.  Trying to control thought and belief leads to the situation in N Korea or the story in Orwell's book Nineteen Eighty Four.

There are 4200 religions and all of them think theirs is the only true religion.  I understand where they came from and why they exist today.  Man want answers to the inexplicable.  "Where does the sun go at night?"  "Why did my son get sick?"   "Why doesn't it rain?" 

Most of these religions originated from older religions, and from times when we had much less in the way of answers to our environment.   This has changed.  People should question indoctrination.  I did.  However, that's not important here.

What is important is the notion that morality *must* come from a higher power has no logical standing if you are a student of history and facts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaGqVbAzjng

In fact, religion has been used as a tool for some of the most despotic acts of man on man.  It has been the foundation of war, terrorism, theft and, throughout history, well documented antithetical behavior to the detriment of millions of people, their lives and their well being.

I appreciate your honesty, and I believe in right and wrong.  Everyone establishes their moral code based on their life experiences and education.

Speaking of Christianity, the religious right seems to advocate for a world antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.  Rather than feed a beggar, tell that beggar he's lazy and get a fvcking job!  Man uses religion as a tool to corrupt the tenants of, what most of us would agree, is "good" behavior, in effect, to excuse "bad" behavior.  That is wrong to me.  I stand on high, unmagical ground.

@nolaegghead

 I think most human beings need to think there is a "higher power", whose laws cannot be altered by man (me included, call me an ignorant sheep if you choose). These laws which cannot be changed and are "written in stone" gives us the true base on how to live our lives as good humans helping humans. While I cannot I say I give the homeless guy on the corner money every time, I TRY not to judge him on his hardships. I TRY not to judge anyone else as well. After all, my religion states love thy neighbor and help them if you can. Its not any humans job to judge, that comes later...

anywho, I can respect anyone who comes to the table with a valid conversation concerning "hot" topics...

While a lot of my fundamental values are based on un-proven faith, it has worked out for me and my family so far as we circle the sun.

I do speak with God, and I think he hears me....I believe you are NOT the only one in control of your life. I believe the cards "fall" better for some based on their faith in God. Call it fate, call it faith, but its definitely not the "luck of the draw".

Spaightlabs said:

While you're at it Tox, you never followed up with the info for me regarding my CCP in CO.  Can you please post the info showing that I have to display my gun before I enter a building.  

My 12 years of Catholic education taught me to ask for proof when I see things that seem inaccurate.  That's ironic in a way, because they were teaching a lot of stuff that seemed inaccurate to me and that didn't hold up very well to proof.

Signed, a liberal recovered Catholic with a concealed carry permit.

PS - all you gotta do is admit that whatever garbage source you got your information from was incorrect.  Don't waste time defending the indefensible.

I gotta answer you Tide-pod eaters one at a time, so hold your horses.

Oh, and I forgot to site my source, so here you go:
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/csp/colorado-gun-laws

I guess the State of Colorado website is a garbage source for Colorado State Laws, huh?

I like Rockwood. Although I have only tried BGE lump and Rockwood. I don't have a vast knowledge of a lot of different lumps. 

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

DMW said:

Toxarch said:

DMW said:

Well regulated militia...

The Right of the People...

https://youtu.be/P4zE0K22zH8

Yep, absolutely concrete logic there. You've convinced me. There should be no regulation whatsoever on which people can have guns. Let's make sure we don't infringe on the rights of Johnny drug dealer or Joe whackjob to freely obtain the weapon of their choice at the local gun show...

...

Before you try to bring it up in a discussion, perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them...

Sure there is. Federal law only requires background checks when sales are conducted via a FFL holder. Not all sales at all gun shows are conducted between FFL holders. Sales between private individuals do not require background checks in most states.

Some gun shows do require all sales to involve background checks in spite of federal rules but I don't believe those are the majority of shows.

Take a video camera to a gun show. Buy a gun without a background check. Upload the video and you'll be rich from all the views and licensed use of the video.

And you should look at the laws for licensed carry in some of those green states. In California, you can not carry a gun within 100 yards of a government official. Anyone who works for the city is a government official. In Colorado, a licensed concealed carrier most pull out the gun and hold it in the open for all to see before entering ANY building. So wave your gun around before walking into your house with it. These are laws for legal gun carriers who have gone through extensive background and fingerprint checks.

I'm not really sure what your point is. The simple fact is that the gunshow loophole does exist. Not all gunshows require background checks between private sellers.

I haven't been to a local (Virginia) gunshow in many years so I thought I would look up what might actually be required these days.

One of the larger gun show operators (Showmasters Gun Shows) has this to say about private sales during one of their shows (hint - they don't require background checks):

What are the laws concerning the private sale of a handgun? 

• To privately sell a firearm, it is recommended that you safeguard information pertaining to the transaction such as the date the firearm was sold, the complete name and address of the buyer, and the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The seller and buyer of a handgun must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs.  Should the firearm ever be located at a crime scene, trace of the firearm will determine the licensed dealer who last sold the firearm and will identify the last buyer of the firearm. To have your name removed from this process, you may consider placing your firearm on consignment with a licensed dealer. This will also ensure that the firearm is transferred only to a lawfully eligible individual.

***

In 2016 the Virginia legislature took the bold action of dealing with background checks in private sales at gun shows by establishing rules that allowed private sellers to VOLUNTARILY request background checks on the people they were selling to.

How well has that worked out?:

"A new state law that expanded criminal background checks — all voluntary — for the private sale of firearms at Virginia gun shows may not be yielding the results that supporters had envisioned when it was crafted last year as part of a bipartisan gun safety deal.

During the first full year of the measure ending June 30, only 54 voluntary background checks were requested by private sellers of firearms or their customers at 77 gun shows across the state. And of those, only one prospective gun buyer was denied the purchase of a gun, and he was never charged with an offense.

By comparison, 39,738 mandatory criminal background checks were performed by federally licensed firearms dealers on their customers at gun shows between July 1, 2016, and June 30, resulting in 325 denials, according to newly released data from the Virginia Firearms Transaction Center, which is operated by the Virginia State Police."

***

So, tell me again how your spouting that "perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them." is not just fake news.

So because it is not illegal, it surely must happen. It's not illegal for me to toss the keys to my dog and let him drive the tractor. Does that mean it happens? According to your logic, it must happen all the time. Your example even shows that there were no illegal firearm sales made by individuals at a gun show.

Again, I have no idea what you're on about.

Let's keep it simple:

1) You said there is no such thing as a gun show loophole as it is just some made up liberal bs.

2) You are wrong.

Simple enough?

That's funny, because you say one thing and then post stuff that proves me right.

I guess it comes down to what you think "gun show loophole" means then yes?

Gun show loophole = background check loophole. The background check loophole pertains to gun sales between parties where no background check is made prior to (or after) a sale and can occur at a gun show (gun show loophole) or between private parties in any other situation/location (background check loophole).

I've never said that sales made via the "gun show loophole" (sales made sans background check) were illegal. On the contrary, they are legal, hence use of the term "loophole", which is what many view to be a problem.

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

HeavyG said:

Toxarch said:

DMW said:

Toxarch said:

DMW said:

Well regulated militia...

The Right of the People...

https://youtu.be/P4zE0K22zH8

Yep, absolutely concrete logic there. You've convinced me. There should be no regulation whatsoever on which people can have guns. Let's make sure we don't infringe on the rights of Johnny drug dealer or Joe whackjob to freely obtain the weapon of their choice at the local gun show...

...

Before you try to bring it up in a discussion, perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them...

Sure there is. Federal law only requires background checks when sales are conducted via a FFL holder. Not all sales at all gun shows are conducted between FFL holders. Sales between private individuals do not require background checks in most states.

Some gun shows do require all sales to involve background checks in spite of federal rules but I don't believe those are the majority of shows.

Take a video camera to a gun show. Buy a gun without a background check. Upload the video and you'll be rich from all the views and licensed use of the video.

And you should look at the laws for licensed carry in some of those green states. In California, you can not carry a gun within 100 yards of a government official. Anyone who works for the city is a government official. In Colorado, a licensed concealed carrier most pull out the gun and hold it in the open for all to see before entering ANY building. So wave your gun around before walking into your house with it. These are laws for legal gun carriers who have gone through extensive background and fingerprint checks.

I'm not really sure what your point is. The simple fact is that the gunshow loophole does exist. Not all gunshows require background checks between private sellers.

I haven't been to a local (Virginia) gunshow in many years so I thought I would look up what might actually be required these days.

One of the larger gun show operators (Showmasters Gun Shows) has this to say about private sales during one of their shows (hint - they don't require background checks):

What are the laws concerning the private sale of a handgun? 

• To privately sell a firearm, it is recommended that you safeguard information pertaining to the transaction such as the date the firearm was sold, the complete name and address of the buyer, and the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The seller and buyer of a handgun must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs.  Should the firearm ever be located at a crime scene, trace of the firearm will determine the licensed dealer who last sold the firearm and will identify the last buyer of the firearm. To have your name removed from this process, you may consider placing your firearm on consignment with a licensed dealer. This will also ensure that the firearm is transferred only to a lawfully eligible individual.

***

In 2016 the Virginia legislature took the bold action of dealing with background checks in private sales at gun shows by establishing rules that allowed private sellers to VOLUNTARILY request background checks on the people they were selling to.

How well has that worked out?:

"A new state law that expanded criminal background checks — all voluntary — for the private sale of firearms at Virginia gun shows may not be yielding the results that supporters had envisioned when it was crafted last year as part of a bipartisan gun safety deal.

During the first full year of the measure ending June 30, only 54 voluntary background checks were requested by private sellers of firearms or their customers at 77 gun shows across the state. And of those, only one prospective gun buyer was denied the purchase of a gun, and he was never charged with an offense.

By comparison, 39,738 mandatory criminal background checks were performed by federally licensed firearms dealers on their customers at gun shows between July 1, 2016, and June 30, resulting in 325 denials, according to newly released data from the Virginia Firearms Transaction Center, which is operated by the Virginia State Police."

***

So, tell me again how your spouting that "perhaps you should learn that there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole" and that it is a made-up liberal speaking term meant to scare those who listen to them." is not just fake news.

So because it is not illegal, it surely must happen. It's not illegal for me to toss the keys to my dog and let him drive the tractor. Does that mean it happens? According to your logic, it must happen all the time. Your example even shows that there were no illegal firearm sales made by individuals at a gun show.

Again, I have no idea what you're on about.

Let's keep it simple:

1) You said there is no such thing as a gun show loophole as it is just some made up liberal bs.

2) You are wrong.

Simple enough?

That's funny, because you say one thing and then post stuff that proves me right.

I guess it comes down to what you think "gun show loophole" means then yes?

Gun show loophole = background check loophole. The background check loophole pertains to gun sales between parties where no background check is made prior to (or after) a sale and can occur at a gun show (gun show loophole) or between private parties in any other situation/location (background check loophole).

I've never said that sales made via the "gun show loophole" (sales made sans background check) were illegal. On the contrary, they are legal, hence use of the term "loophole", which is what many view to be a problem.

Per your definition, it has nothing to do with being gun show specific. Therefore there is no such thing as a "gun show loophole".

Now, are there legal private sales between individuals? Yes there are and I have said that. Want to know how to fix that without the need to pass a law? Make private gun sale background checks 100% free. We already know that people who break the law are not going to follow the law so more laws do nothing to them. If the background checks were free, then almost everyone doing private sales would do them. Who won't do them? Bad guys for one. Another might be sales/transfers between friends and family. I've known my hunting buddies for 20+ years. I'm pretty sure I know their criminal history. I also know my family and there's no need to background check them, I definitely know their history. Making it a law to do those checks because I am giving a hunting rifle to my adult son makes no sense. And having to pay to do it means money out of my pocket for something I shouldn't be required to do. So make it free and make it voluntary. The legal people will do it. The illegal people won't. Don't waste time with laws.

Toxarch said:

YukonRon said:

]

Toxarch said:

For those saying, "More Regulation!", go back and look at Connecticut laws passed after the Sandy Hook shooting. Everyone wanted to find a way to prevent something like that from happening again. Short of violating The Constitution, Connecticut law makers were pretty much allowed to pass almost any law they wanted to make sure it could never happen again. They passed a lot of new laws. In the end, they all patted each other on the back and said good job.
If all those laws they passed had been put into place 10 years earlier, not a single one of those new laws would have been broken by the shooter. Not one of them applied to anything he did leading up to the shooting.
He stole the guns from his mother and shot her in the face, killing her. Those 3 things are already illegal.

Stop trying to compare the USA to Japan, England, and Australia. If you hate the Second Amendment and think those countries are better then MOVE there. You got your no gun utopia, good luck walking down the street with all the random knife attacks.

Stop blaming the gun and start blaming society. You are raising kids who are taught that they don't have to responsible for their actions. It doesn't matter what they do, good or bad, they all get the same participation trophy in the end. They aren't taught to look someone in the eye when talking to them, they can stare at their mobile phone/television and ignore whoever is talking to them if they want. They aren't going to get anything more than a time-out. Your child seems hyper so you feed them drugs. Your child seems sad so you feed them drugs. They are kids, they get hyper and sad, it's what they do. They are taught that if something isn't going their way, they point the finger and blame someone else. Who is your kids hero? A Kardashian? A Youtuber? A singer? Some other idiot famous for being famous? When something happens in front of them, what's their first reaction? Pull out their phone and hit record so it can go on Youtube? So who is to blame for all of that? Society? Maybe. The parents? Absolutely. Yes, this latest shooter lost his parents, but plenty around him, especially students, knew that he had problems and yet they all did nothing. Why were those other students telling their parents about this crazy kid?

What am I thinking, we have a generation of kids who have to be told not to eat Tide Pods. They are all normal and the parents are doing a great job.

Just think about this post for only one second.

Society is to blame, for the senseless murder of people, for the way we raise our children.

That is such a rich and brilliant retort to the suggestion we re examine the law that allows the slaughter of our fellow Americans, which recently has become proportionally larger with children who have been gunned down.

How about the older fellow who killed 51 in Las Vegas? He was not a Tide pod chewing teenager, or medicated for depression or being overactive.

Worry about knife stabbings? Are you actually serious? A person with a knife will not kill 51 people from a hotel room, 20 stories up, 1/4 mile away.

That has got to be the most ignorant platform I have ever read, concerning mass murder using assault rifles (AR15 or similar) in the USA.

Sorry friend, the second amendment was not written to allow gun sales to people to kill Americans, it was written for something else, entirely. It is time to re examine that ammendment as it pertains to the bill of rights, which guarantees every U.S. Citizen a life with liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

There are a lot of people out there, due to idiots with guns, and the idiots that support an idiot's right to have guns, that have had all three of those promises, ripped from them, forever.

Unfortunately, many people, the non paranoid types, do not think hunkering down in a home turned into a bunker, with a dozen assault type rifles is a way to live a life. They want better for themselves and their children.

Before you condemn what other countries are doing, investigate what they have done, and the results. 

So please, spare me the society bull **** of blaming parents, as if that is the only problem.
People are getting slaughtered everywhere, not just by Tide chewing kids.

SMDH.

That's funny coming from a hypocrite with a gun. You hate guns, you don't want others to have guns, yet you own a gun to protect your family. If you don't want others to have guns then you should not have a gun yourself. That must make you one of those idiots with a gun that you speak of. You have a gun to protect your family from bad guys with guns. Guess what, bad guys do not follow the law. You could pass all the laws you want and put up all the gun-free zone signs you want. Bad guys don't care. Why do mass shootings happen in a gun-free zone? Because all the legal people don't have guns making it a target-rich environment.

What do you hear when someone gets stabbed? Maybe a scream? How many people could be stabbed at a large venue concert before everyone was alerted? Hundreds?

And sorry friend, I never claimed the 2nd Amendment was written for Americans to kill Americans. You want to pass more laws. Only people who don't break the law follow laws. Killing people is already illegal. Guns have been in the country for 200 years, why is school shootings and other mass shootings sudden an issue only in the last 30 years? Don't give me some bull**** answer that it's the 2nd Amendment, evil "assault rifles", and "gun show loop holes". You tell me since clearly you think it is not society and the way parents are raising their kids. Because the problem is not the 2nd Amendment or the guns. Those have been around for a long time.

I've seen what other countries have done and the results. I want no part of it, that is why I am an American citizen.

Hypocrite with a gun. 

Yes, I own a gun. I live in the same real world as you. The world where idiots have the right to buy assault rifles to kill other Americans, for no other reason than having a bad hair day.
Just one thing, though, I do not own an assault rifle.

I do not need one.

Just one more thing, due to the current law, and the manner in which it has been interpreted over the last two hundred years, everyone is  practically forced to own a weapon.

I wonder why that is? Big money lobbies to in DC maybe? 

That being said, Mr. American, in the last 30 years, will you deny the use of assault rifles in mass shootings as well? Heck let's just start at the infamous University of Texas tower shooting, and just count the use of assault rifles from that point....

Of course you will.

People, such as yourself, and the other idiots that believe more guns makes America much more safe, while hunkered down in your bunker, criticizing others for raising their children incorrectly, which ultimately in your bizarre way of thinking leads to mass murder, just keep sending your prayers to those suffering after each of these incidents. I am sure they will start doing things much more different than before. After they bury their children. Many of the victims, were from homes no different than the shooter.

In your world, a person with a knife is more dangerous than a sniper with assault weapons? Maybe it is time for you to be taken off the hallucinogenic tide pods.

In the last 30 years, of which you identified, name one event, anywhere, on this planet, where a person with a knife killed 51 people in less than 20 minutes. Just one. I will wait.

Further, you have not looked or even read the results and the work foreign governments have done to reduce and eliminate senseless killings at the hands of idiots with an assault rifle.

They recognize there is an issue. You think the issue is godless parents. Getting everyone to church and sitting together for evening meals will solve that, I am sure.

Funny thing though, none of the countries that have that have generated policies to reduce mass murder, have never implemented those two strategies in their programs.

Of course, nobody in those countries feel the need to live in a bunker and periscope the rest of the world either.

You are an NRA tool. 

2nd Amendment needs restructuring. It is failing Americans. The body count is all the evidence needed to support change.

Maybe you need to change the first amendment in your tide pod world.