Biden's Classified Doc Problem

JohnInCarolina

News broke this morning that in addition to the two places his lawyers had already found some classified documents from his time as VP under Obama, there were classified docs found at his house in Delaware.  Face palm.  

I think there's still plenty we don't know about what has happened here, and I will hold off on final judgment until the DOJ investigation completes, but... my goodness.  At minimum, this all signals a lack of care with classified documents that is personally pretty hard to fathom.  There's really no excuse for it.  Between this stuff with Biden and what has happened with Trump, it seems to me that however the executive branch has been managing op-sec around classified info is very inadequate.  The most charitable explanation for what happened with Biden involves classified docs apparently just having been left out in places in his office and then accidentally packed up by a staffer.  There is no universe where something like that should be remotely possible.

Regardless of where your views fall politically, I can promise you that both of these incidents have caused real damage to our national security.   I can’t imagine any halfway intelligent human source in another country being interested in talking to us anytime soon after all of this.

Ozzie_Isaac

Well said.  This signals a systemic issue with how op-sec is handled within the executive branch.  Truly disgusting.

HeavyG

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

fishlessman

im surprised they havent looked under hunters bed......well not really, no one wants that job......

so do we start impeachment hearings again, seems to be trending

JohnInCarolina

And Garland has just announced a special counsel to look into this.  

JohnInCarolina

HeavyG said:

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

There are absolutely a lot of differences between the two cases - Biden and Trump - that will inform how things move forward from here.  

Some of the documents were classified as SCI.  Sure, some things do get overclassified.  But if they're rated SCI I personally think the likelihood that they actually contain info we'd legitimately be concerned about being released is rather high.  Were it just confidential or OUO it would be a very different story.  

Regardless, these files are clearly marked.  You can't miss them.  A "lot of stuff" getting packed up may be what happened here, but the fact that these things were mixed in with other "stuff" is in and of itself problematic.  There's just an overall lack of care here you won't find in other organizations that handle classified info.  That's a real issue that I hope gets addressed, although with our current government I'm not optimistic.   

Ozzie_Isaac

HeavyG said:

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

Handling classified material for us regular folks seems way more controlled.

Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked.  I could see this happening with "working papers", but with finalized reports this is unfathomable to me without willful negligence or ignorance.

There should, at a min, be handlers for these executives whose sole job is tracking and maintaining control of these docs.

HeavyG

Ozzie_Isaac said:

HeavyG said:

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

Handling classified material for us regular folks seems way more controlled.

Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked.  I could see this happening with "working papers", but with finalized reports this is unfathomable to me without willful negligence or ignorance.

There should, at a min, be handlers for these executives whose sole job is tracking and maintaining control of these docs.

Well, Chelsea Manning, Reality Winner, Edward Snowden, John Walker, etc. would beg to differ.

I will certainly agree that "something should be done".

Ozzie_Isaac

HeavyG said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

HeavyG said:

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

Handling classified material for us regular folks seems way more controlled.

Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked.  I could see this happening with "working papers", but with finalized reports this is unfathomable to me without willful negligence or ignorance.

There should, at a min, be handlers for these executives whose sole job is tracking and maintaining control of these docs.

Well, Chelsea Manning, Reality Winner, Edward Snowden, John Walker, etc. would beg to differ.

I will certainly agree that "something should be done".

Those folks fall under my statement; "unfathomable without willful negligence"

They all actively sought to steal classified docs.  Theirs was not an accident.

HeavyG

Ozzie_Isaac said:

HeavyG said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

HeavyG said:

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

Handling classified material for us regular folks seems way more controlled.

Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked.  I could see this happening with "working papers", but with finalized reports this is unfathomable to me without willful negligence or ignorance.

There should, at a min, be handlers for these executives whose sole job is tracking and maintaining control of these docs.

Well, Chelsea Manning, Reality Winner, Edward Snowden, John Walker, etc. would beg to differ.

I will certainly agree that "something should be done".

Those folks fall under my statement; "unfathomable without willful negligence"

They all actively sought to steal classified docs.  Theirs was not an accident.

I was using them under your "Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked." statement.

At this point tho, can we automatically assume that Trump/Biden were in possession of subject documents "by accident"? In at least one case we know that is not true.

Regardless, "something should be done".

Ozzie_Isaac

HeavyG said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

HeavyG said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

HeavyG said:

Certainly an embarrassment for Biden. My guess is that, if looked at thoroughly enough, this is not unusual with departing administrations. A lot of stuff gets packed up and moved out and I'm betting that some stuff like this just gets missed by whoever is loading up boxes. The difference with Trump tho is that he seemed to intentionally want to keep many of the documents he had in his possession.

What we don't know, and likely never will, is just how "Classified" all these documents really are. It is widely known (and has been for decades) that too many documents are given various levels of "Classified" status - overclassification is a real thing.

What has been needed for decades is a serious look at what is given classified status, and who has access to it/them. I think that anytime you have given SCI clearance to over a million people as we have done that there are going to be "chinks in the armor".

Handling classified material for us regular folks seems way more controlled.

Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked.  I could see this happening with "working papers", but with finalized reports this is unfathomable to me without willful negligence or ignorance.

There should, at a min, be handlers for these executives whose sole job is tracking and maintaining control of these docs.

Well, Chelsea Manning, Reality Winner, Edward Snowden, John Walker, etc. would beg to differ.

I will certainly agree that "something should be done".

Those folks fall under my statement; "unfathomable without willful negligence"

They all actively sought to steal classified docs.  Theirs was not an accident.

I was using them under your "Docs are stored in secure locations, cannot be removed with signing out, are rigorously tracked." statement.

At this point tho, can we automatically assume that Trump/Biden were in possession of subject documents "by accident"? In at least one case we know that is not true.

Regardless, "something should be done".

I agree completely, Trump's case falls clearly into "willfully" category.   Especially since after months of very clear requests it took a raid to get them back.

Gulfcoastguy

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Ozzie_Isaac

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

Gulfcoastguy

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

We can only hope. Unlikely though.

fishlessman

In the garage.....next to the recyclable paper bin...nobody would look there

nolaegghead

Intent is a factor that can make it egregious in the eyes of the law.  If it was truly accidental, it was still negligent.  I think the Justice Dept is doing the right thing by assigning an independent investigation.

In both cases, (and all cases, really), I think the law should be followed.

dmchicago

The opening we all need for Joe to announce he won’t run for president again. 

fishlessman

Worse than Watergate.....

JohnInCarolina

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

Well neither has been found guilty of committing a crime yet, so perhaps we should wait to see if that occurs.  

fishlessman

JohnInCarolina said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

Well neither has been found guilty of committing a crime yet, so perhaps we should wait to see if that occurs.  

This just seals the deal that trump will not be found guilty. Don't believe he was going to be anyways. Biden is now doomed with theories as what he was doing with hunter overseas. Not a great way to end a long career in politics

JohnInCarolina

fishlessman said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

Well neither has been found guilty of committing a crime yet, so perhaps we should wait to see if that occurs.  

This just seals the deal that trump will not be found guilty.

I wouldn’t bet on that.

fishlessman

JohnInCarolina said:

fishlessman said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

Well neither has been found guilty of committing a crime yet, so perhaps we should wait to see if that occurs.  

This just seals the deal that trump will not be found guilty.

I wouldn’t bet on that.

At this point I would not bet against it. We don't really know what they have. Let's go with the crazy theories that will grow from this like how Obama was involved etc...

JohnInCarolina

fishlessman said:

JohnInCarolina said:

fishlessman said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Ozzie_Isaac said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

I’ll get some popcorn and watch the news tonight . Actually the comments section here is even funnier.

Is it too much to hope they both go to jail?  Like all the Illinois Governors?

Well neither has been found guilty of committing a crime yet, so perhaps we should wait to see if that occurs.  

This just seals the deal that trump will not be found guilty.

I wouldn’t bet on that.

At this point I would not bet against it. We don't really know what they have. Let's go with the crazy theories that will grow from this like how Obama was involved etc...

I’m perfectly fine waiting until both Special Counsels complete their work to draw any big conclusions, one way or the other.

fishlessman

Nobody really wants Biden to run. This will just make things more interesting 

JohnInCarolina

fishlessman said:

Nobody really wants Biden to run. This will just make things more interesting 

Nobody really wanted him to run in 2020, and yet… here we are.  

fishlessman

JohnInCarolina said:

fishlessman said:

Nobody really wants Biden to run. This will just make things more interesting 

Nobody really wanted him to run in 2020, and yet… here we are.                                    I think that was a sinfeild episode, run on nothing and hide and become president

Botch

nolaegghead said:

Intent is a factor that can make it egregious in the eyes of the law.  If it was truly accidental, it was still negligent.   

This.
I had the misfortune of being assigned not one, but two, missing classified incidents while I was Active Duty.  The first one, a middle manager had signed out a document, copied it, then logged the copy back into the safe when he was done marking it up; but he hadn't signed the original back in.  It was discovered missing during the next inventory check.  He walked me through that day as best as he could remember, showed me how he copied it, but he wasn't sure how/when he'd lost track of the original.  The copier had one of those spring-loaded lids you could lift, hinged in the back; on a hunch he and I slid the copier away from the wall, and the original was behind it, on the floor.  Negligent, but no intent, and he kept his job and got some kind of reprimand.
The second, another class. doc was missing from the Head Secretary's safe during another Inventory.  I attempted to interview her and she started yelling at me, then crying and stormed off.  I had the Director open the safe and did my own Inventory, the doc wasn't there.  The bottom drawer had one of those sliding dividers moved forward a bit; I reached behind it, and found the missing document, all crumbled up.  I completed the inventory and wrote up my report.  She got fired; because she had crumbled it up intentionally (just didn't want to deal with it?  No idea).  Unpleasant tasks for sure.
So, yes, intent is everything, which is why these two cases, and the cheeto/Biden cases, are different.  

Gulfcoastguy

Are we sure about intent yet?

nolaegghead

Gulfcoastguy said:

Are we sure about intent yet?

We are with the party that admitted their intent.  The Biden case has been pretty private so far and the investigation ongoing.

fishlessman

Gulfcoastguy said:

Are we sure about intent yet?

Not clear yet. Biden is a long time politician that should know better, trump was not....lol

JohnInCarolina

fishlessman said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

Are we sure about intent yet?

Not clear yet. Biden is a long time politician that should know better, trump was not....lol

Should Trump know better than to ignore a subpoena?