Interesting sous vide article

GrillSgt

I have yet to partake but have been reading the threads here with interest. What are you guys opinions of the length of time in the bath?

http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/06/food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-steak.html

The_Stache

Thanks for sharing that article. I use this https://s3.amazonaws.com/chefsteps/static/ChefSteps-SousVideReference.pdf as a guide.  Both temp and length of the bath affect doneness and texture.

gdenby

It doesn't appear that the article is considering the grade of steak. There are 2 places near me that sell whole strip sections that are only select grade. Thet tend to be quite tough. But if SV'd at 133F for at least 36 hours, 48 being max, the collagen turns almost completely to gel. The results are most acceptable.

thetrim

Good stuff.  I will go 130 for four hours for nearly all 2" or thicker steaks.  i also add a pat of butter to both sides before vacuum sealing.  I'll use choice or prime steaks.

GrillSgt

I'm looking forward to taking the plunge. I've used something similar for years. Poaching a firm white fish in butter and herbs at a real low temp and then a quick sear. Outrageous. 

Toxarch

I do sous vide sometimes and the food is good. But I always wonder about leaving the food in the "Danger Zone" (40 F to 140 F) for long periods of time. The USDA says food left at those temps for more than 2 hours should not be consumed. And here we are leaving meat in a warm water bath for 36 hours. The food tastes good but is it safe to eat it?

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Toxarch said:

I do sous vide sometimes and the food is good. But I always wonder about leaving the food in the "Danger Zone" (40 F to 140 F) for long periods of time. The USDA says food left at those temps for more than 2 hours should not be consumed. And here we are leaving meat in a warm water bath for 36 hours. The food tastes good but is it safe to eat it?

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index

It's totally safe to eat. 140 kills stuff instantly but 131 or so kills everything within a safe amount of time. Where people go wrong is not paying attn to the thickness. If you threw a whole pork butt in there, the middle would take too long to come to temp at these lower temps and therefore would not be safe to eat. There are many calculators, apps, and charts out there that will tell you what thickness and temp to keep you in the safe zone

nolaegghead

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

Toxarch said:

I do sous vide sometimes and the food is good. But I always wonder about leaving the food in the "Danger Zone" (40 F to 140 F) for long periods of time. The USDA says food left at those temps for more than 2 hours should not be consumed. And here we are leaving meat in a warm water bath for 36 hours. The food tastes good but is it safe to eat it?

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index

It's totally safe to eat. 140 kills stuff instantly but 131 or so kills everything within a safe amount of time. Where people go wrong is not paying attn to the thickness. If you threw a whole pork butt in there, the middle would take too long to come to temp at these lower temps and therefore would not be safe to eat. There are many calculators, apps, and charts out there that will tell you what thickness and temp to keep you in the safe zone

Typically the "germs" are on the outside of the meat where butchers exposed the surface to the environment.  I wouldn't worry about that too much.   The same "inside" meat can stay in the danger zone cooking a prime rib through conventional techniques.

So the outside, presuming if you go longer than 4 hours via SV and cook above 130F, will pretty quickly become less of a petri dish even though the inside is at a filthy-dirty-hippy breeding temp (not much is happening there except enzymatic breakdown).

blind99

Over 130 should stop any bad bacteria from growing and begin pasteurizing. But a big hunk of meat may take a long time to get there. So a big, contaminated piece of meat cooked at 130 for four hours may have had plenty of time to multiply the baddies but never kill them. 

Check out Doug baldwins stuff and take a look at the pasteurization tables.

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Safety

bgebrent

blind99 said:

Over 130 should stop any bad bacteria from growing and begin pasteurizing. But a big hunk of meat may take a long time to get there. So a big, contaminated piece of meat cooked at 130 for four hours may have had plenty of time to multiply the baddies but never kill them. 

Check out Doug baldwins stuff and take a look at the pasteurization tables.

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Safety

Science is so overrated.  Get a day job.

nolaegghead

But ironically, no one worries about this in a low and slow.

bgebrent

nolaegghead said:

But ironically, no one worries about this in a low and slow.

That is not ironic.  

nolaegghead

bgebrent said:

nolaegghead said:

But ironically, no one worries about this in a low and slow.

That is not ironic.  

I don't recall its discussion unless someone's fire went out.

thetrim

Not ironic

The Cen-Tex Smoker

nolaegghead said:

The Cen-Tex Smoker said:

Toxarch said:

I do sous vide sometimes and the food is good. But I always wonder about leaving the food in the "Danger Zone" (40 F to 140 F) for long periods of time. The USDA says food left at those temps for more than 2 hours should not be consumed. And here we are leaving meat in a warm water bath for 36 hours. The food tastes good but is it safe to eat it?

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index

It's totally safe to eat. 140 kills stuff instantly but 131 or so kills everything within a safe amount of time. Where people go wrong is not paying attn to the thickness. If you threw a whole pork butt in there, the middle would take too long to come to temp at these lower temps and therefore would not be safe to eat. There are many calculators, apps, and charts out there that will tell you what thickness and temp to keep you in the safe zone

Typically the "germs" are on the outside of the meat where butchers exposed the surface to the environment.  I wouldn't worry about that too much.   The same "inside" meat can stay in the danger zone cooking a prime rib through conventional techniques.

So the outside, presuming if you go longer than 4 hours via SV and cook above 130F, will pretty quickly become less of a petri dish even though the inside is at a filthy-dirty-hippy breeding temp (not much is happening there except enzymatic breakdown).

That actually makes sense. It seems all the SV safety info is based mostly on the risk of botulinum so they err on the side of super safety. That is not a risk with anyone that uses a food saver or zip type bag since there is still plenty of oxygen in the bag. I was not "taking it with a grain of salt" when understanding the real risks from what I read. 

Toxarch

nolaegghead said:

But ironically, no one worries about this in a low and slow.

I havent tried to get my egg temp low enough for a low and slow smoke at 130 degrees. Not sure I could do it. 

whldch

I followed Kenji's time and temps for a few sous vide cooks and find them right on the money. I have a joule, sometimes their recommendations and Kenji's are very close, other times very different. I think brisket was very different I followed Kenji's and was happy. I haven't used it enough to compare. I like the fact that he compares time and temps and shows you the differences. 

blind99

bgebrent said:

blind99 said:

Over 130 should stop any bad bacteria from growing and begin pasteurizing. But a big hunk of meat may take a long time to get there. So a big, contaminated piece of meat cooked at 130 for four hours may have had plenty of time to multiply the baddies but never kill them. 

Check out Doug baldwins stuff and take a look at the pasteurization tables.

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Safety

Science is so overrated.  Get a day job.

I'm hoping to follow your lead one day and work out of a lake house with an egg on the porch!

blind99

nolaegghead said:

bgebrent said:

nolaegghead said:

But ironically, no one worries about this in a low and slow.

That is not ironic.  

I don't recall its discussion unless someone's fire went out.

I'm too lazy to routinely cook at low temps but the internal temps can get up to stall temps like 150-160 pretty quickly. I've never monitored the internal temp of a sous vide cook.

If you're insinuating that I/we are food safety amateurs I agree completely. 

jtcBoynton

GrillSgt said:

I have yet to partake but have been reading the threads here with interest. What are you guys opinions of the length of time in the bath?

http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/06/food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-steak.html

J. Kenji López-Alt is one of the folks that I trust for SV information.  The times seems fine to me.  I have been happy following SV recipes from him.

jtcBoynton

Toxarch said:

nolaegghead said:

But ironically, no one worries about this in a low and slow.

I havent tried to get my egg temp low enough for a low and slow smoke at 130 degrees. Not sure I could do it. 

Remember that heat transfer by convection (egging) is a different animal than conduction (water bath).

jtcBoynton

Toxarch said:

I do sous vide sometimes and the food is good. But I always wonder about leaving the food in the "Danger Zone" (40 F to 140 F) for long periods of time. The USDA says food left at those temps for more than 2 hours should not be consumed. And here we are leaving meat in a warm water bath for 36 hours. The food tastes good but is it safe to eat it?

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/danger-zone-40-f-140-f/ct_index

The USDA guidelines are just that - guidelines.  They are targeting a vast audience with simple, easy to remember "rules" that will provide safe cooking.  They are over simplifications of the known information.  If you apply more detailed information in a more technical way you will be fine (just don't make it up yourself). Pasteurization is a function of time and temp.  The USDA guidelines have picked short times which leads to high temp requirements.  Lower temps applied for longer times will be just as safe.  A 131ºF temp will do fine if held long enough (actual minimum temp is lower but I stick to this value to provide a safety margin).  Reputable SV recipe authors will utilize the same time/temp charts the USDA did when they develop recipes (which is why it is important to use recipes you trust and not just any random internet recipe).