Japanese or European cooking knives?

SkySaw

I’ve discovered that good cutting/chopping technique is much easier when you use a really good, sharp knife. I recently bought a Japanese style knife that is much harder, thinner, and sharper than the European style chef knives that I have been using for years.

As I understand it, the idea behind the differences between European and Japanese cooking knives is that the European knives are made from softer, thicker steel that is durable and that can be easily sharpened and honed prior to use. Because the blade is fairly soft, its edge folds over easily, and so the knife must be honed often to push that folded edge back in place.  The softer steel also makes it difficult to achieve a very sharp edge, as the blade tends to be quite thick and the steel can’t hold the edge long enough for a really sharp edge to be worth the time.

Japanese style knives use harder steel, which can be prone to chipping and rusting, but the payoff is that the steel can be thinned out much more than European steel knives and brought to a sharper edge. The harder steel can hold the edge well, and so Japanese knives do not require as frequent sharpening or honing. Japanese style knives require more care in use than do European style knives.

I have found that my Japanese knife (a 165mm stainless Nakiri) cuts food almost effortlessly and releases it very nicely compared to my Henkel Santoku. This means that I don’t have to hold on to the food that I’m cutting and can use my non-cutting hand to guide the knife and pull back on top of the food that I am cutting as I am cutting it. I can be much faster doing this and much more accurate with my cutting.

What style do most of you prefer to use? Now that I have experienced a Japanese cooking knife, I prefer this style by a long shot. It also makes me think that anyone who uses a Mandolin (the finger slicer, not the musical instrument) probably has never experienced the pleasure of using a Japanese knife. 

 

bigalsworth

I like Japanese steel, but I also like some of the new alloys that are out there that can get a hardness of 63+.  The knife can be western style just with those metals, and with a Japanese style handle, I really like the rounded handles.

Eggcelsior

Japanese for me. I much prefer their geometries. 

Botch

I've got a couple Japanese blades, but I miss the "curve" of traditional European knives, which allow you to "rock" as you slice.  It's just the way I'm used to cutting after 25 years.
I could've probably gotten just as used to the Japanese blades, had I started with them; their wider widths allow you to scoop up what you just cut, and throw into the pan, better than Europeans style.  

bigbadben

I just jumped onto the japanese knife bandwagon.  I had Shuns and MACs. I almost consider these western knives after purchasing a cheap thin gyuto and nakiri. I am a couple weeks into the purchase of a few knives and couldn't be happier.  Not sure where I will spend $$$$ next, but the next upgrades could get expensive. 

TheToast

I have both but don't use the Japanese knives as much because of the care - you have to clean them straight away, dry them straight after. And still mine has rusted slightly while in storage. It's very sharp so comes out when I need a sharp knife to score pig skin or something but my European-style knives, while cheaper and less sharp, can be left out wet, left to dry on a draining board  and are easy to re-point with a steel. Plus they're cheaper so I can always replace them every few years. 

Eoin

I use a UK hand made folded / forged carbon steel knife for almost everything. It holds an edge so well, only infrequent sharpening needed. Yes, it goes rusty but I don't mind a bit of patina. No point trying to keep a carbon steel blade shiny, that's a losing battle.

gdenby

Most euro style knives used to be called German, as opposed to the French style. I started w. french, a particularly good Sabatier/Hoffritz. Much flatter, almost triangular, and a remarkable fine edge, tho' fairly brittle. As I started to get knives better 2nd hand store/big box types, I looked a Henckel's twins. I had a friend who loved his. After years of doing push pull cuts, I found them awkward.

Decided to try a Japanese petty that was stainless clad, and that worked so well. W. the exception of the old Sabatier, and a couple of Dexter-Russell boning knives, all of the knives I use now are Japanese. I only have one traditional steel, a small White 2 gyuto. The rest are either stain resistant, of at least stainless clad for ease of maintenance.

FWIW, the knife I use now is a plain "bunka,"  almost as flat as a nakiri, but longer, and having a triangular point like a kiritsuke . The edge is supposed to be somewhere between 62 - 63 HRc. W. continual use, I've only stropped it, not sharpened it, for over a year. The cladding has a finely brushed surface, so "stickity-ness" is minimal.

SkySaw

bigalsworth said:

I like Japanese steel, but I also like some of the new alloys that are out there that can get a hardness of 63+.  The knife can be western style just with those metals, and with a Japanese style handle, I really like the rounded handles.

Can you offer an example or two? I'm curious to see these, or at least some of the manufacturers that are producing what you are talking about.

JMCXL

Would love to see photos, you know we all like to see photos (Please)

SkySaw

gdenby said:

Most euro style knives used to be called German, as opposed to the French style. I started w. french, a particularly good Sabatier/Hoffritz. Much flatter, almost triangular, and a remarkable fine edge, tho' fairly brittle. As I started to get knives better 2nd hand store/big box types, I looked a Henckel's twins. I had a friend who loved his. After years of doing push pull cuts, I found them awkward.

Decided to try a Japanese petty that was stainless clad, and that worked so well. W. the exception of the old Sabatier, and a couple of Dexter-Russell boning knives, all of the knives I use now are Japanese. I only have one traditional steel, a small White 2 gyuto. The rest are either stain resistant, of at least stainless clad for ease of maintenance.

FWIW, the knife I use now is a plain "bunka,"  almost as flat as a nakiri, but longer, and having a triangular point like a kiritsuke . The edge is supposed to be somewhere between 62 - 63 HRc. W. continual use, I've only stropped it, not sharpened it, for over a year. The cladding has a finely brushed surface, so "stickity-ness" is minimal.

I guess it takes a bit of experimentation to find what knives work best for anyone's preferred cutting style and tolerance for maintenance. I could use a Gyuto to go with my Nakiri, but I'm not sure yet whether to go with a White 1, Blue, or another stainless edge. I'm leaning toward a white 1 for ease of sharpening and so that I can easily maintain a really sharp edge. 

I also prefer how light the Japanese blades are compared to the European ones.

bigalsworth

SkySaw said:

bigalsworth said:

I like Japanese steel, but I also like some of the new alloys that are out there that can get a hardness of 63+.  The knife can be western style just with those metals, and with a Japanese style handle, I really like the rounded handles.

Can you offer an example or two? I'm curious to see these, or at least some of the manufacturers that are producing what you are talking about.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ This website gives a very good description of different types of metals and it also has a great selection of Japanese made knives.  I bought a Masamoto HC series gyuto, which is carbon steel and has fantastic edge retention, but i'm not a huge fan of the handle.  I also have a henkles miyabi gyuto which is a powdered steel core and stainless damascus cladding.  The miyabi is an excellent knife as well, it holds a fantastic edge and the handle is so comfortable.  Its basically all about the handle for me now.

jonessteave

I have always loved the quality of some things from Japan and i admire greatly their respect for the old ways and the embrace of modern technology. I don't have as much respect for the modern technologies as a glass of water can destroy it all while a glass of water only is used for drinking in the old ways.

Anyways, i have seen a few documentaries on the Japanese and their knives, as well as reading some threads about them on the forum here. Living on my own now, i feel that the need for a nice set of high quality, hand forged knives is essential. I have my old Ka-Bar that i use for many things, but it is unsightly for when the guests arrive. Know what i mean? I have been raised that when company is present, your home and hosting should be best and show nothing but the best you can provide. I know the price for these knives may be steep, but that does not bother me. I am sure i can buy piece by piece and build the collection over time. I find their knives and styles very attractive.

I used to sell Cutco34 for a spell and did not find myself satisfied with product and promotion. Essentially cheap knives made to last for a while for people who either do not know true quality cutlery and or think that it is. For their price, which is a bit high for what they are, is what you get. They're not bad, i just don't like or want them in my kitchen.
#best japanese steel knives
I would like to ask if anyone knows or has experience in buying these knives. It can be tricky and i don't really have an idea where to start looking. I do remember that there is a member here who lives in Japan, i think and for the life of me cannot remember his name. How ride of me, right? I would like to call upon those who know for advice so i can begin my search and research and eventually purchase of these type of knives.

Thank you.

GrateEggspectations

I have become quite passionate about Japanese knives the last several years. For me, no acquisitions have made me happier in the kitchen. I do own European knives, but the aesthetics, ergonomics and quality of my Japanese blades have made me happier. For Canadians, the best place to shop for Japanese knives is Knifewear (knifewear.com). They have only a few physical stores, one of which is in my hometown of Ottawa. For anyone belabouring the care required of Japanese carbon steel, note that makers are increasingly cladding their carbon steel blades in stainless steel, giving you both amazing edge retention and protection against corrosion. Currently thinking I’ll sell off some of my pieces getting less frequent use for a nice big bunka. 

Don’t be fooled into thinking you need a big range of knives to do the job. I’ve often thought I could get by easily with a gyuto alone. If you want more variety than that, you can go with a smaller petty as well. Personally, I’m more inclined to buy a few really choice pieces than stock a larger amount of lesser quality knives. 

RyanStl

jonessteave said:

I have always loved the quality of some things from Japan and i admire greatly their respect for the old ways and the embrace of modern technology. I don't have as much respect for the modern technologies as a glass of water can destroy it all while a glass of water only is used for drinking in the old ways.

Anyways, i have seen a few documentaries on the Japanese and their knives, as well as reading some threads about them on the forum here. Living on my own now, i feel that the need for a nice set of high quality, hand forged knives is essential. I have my old Ka-Bar that i use for many things, but it is unsightly for when the guests arrive. Know what i mean? I have been raised that when company is present, your home and hosting should be best and show nothing but the best you can provide. I know the price for these knives may be steep, but that does not bother me. I am sure i can buy piece by piece and build the collection over time. I find their knives and styles very attractive.

I used to sell Cutco34 for a spell and did not find myself satisfied with product and promotion. Essentially cheap knives made to last for a while for people who either do not know true quality cutlery and or think that it is. For their price, which is a bit high for what they are, is what you get. They're not bad, i just don't like or want them in my kitchen.
#best japanese steel knives
I would like to ask if anyone knows or has experience in buying these knives. It can be tricky and i don't really have an idea where to start looking. I do remember that there is a member here who lives in Japan, i think and for the life of me cannot remember his name. How ride of me, right? I would like to call upon those who know for advice so i can begin my search and research and eventually purchase of these type of knives.

Thank you.

Join Kitchen Knives Forum and start a thread.  Be sure, and I mean, be sure you fill out their survey. It's an opinionated bunch, but if you follow protocol and fill out their form when asking what knife to buy they'll help you out.  They can give recommendations for any budget.  They tend to prefer Japanese, but the problem is so much is out of stock.

I like my shuns.  I have mostly premier, but I have one classic that I got after, and would say I prefer the classic handle, but the premiers are beautiful.

fishlessman

most people you have into your house dont know much about knives, my ginsu hanaita impresses most. then they help you out by putting it in the dishwasher....dont touch my ginsu

2HB

jonessteave said:

I have always loved the quality of some things from Japan and i admire greatly their respect for the old ways and the embrace of modern technology. I don't have as much respect for the modern technologies as a glass of water can destroy it all while a glass of water only is used for drinking in the old ways.

Anyways, i have seen a few documentaries on the Japanese and their knives, as well as reading some threads about them on the forum here. Living on my own now, i feel that the need for a nice set of high quality, hand forged knives is essential. I have my old Ka-Bar that i use for many things, but it is unsightly for when the guests arrive. Know what i mean? I have been raised that when company is present, your home and hosting should be best and show nothing but the best you can provide. I know the price for these knives may be steep, but that does not bother me. I am sure i can buy piece by piece and build the collection over time. I find their knives and styles very attractive.

I used to sell Cutco34 for a spell and did not find myself satisfied with product and promotion. Essentially cheap knives made to last for a while for people who either do not know true quality cutlery and or think that it is. For their price, which is a bit high for what they are, is what you get. They're not bad, i just don't like or want them in my kitchen.
#best japanese steel knives
I would like to ask if anyone knows or has experience in buying these knives. It can be tricky and i don't really have an idea where to start looking. I do remember that there is a member here who lives in Japan, i think and for the life of me cannot remember his name. How ride of me, right? I would like to call upon those who know for advice so i can begin my search and research and eventually purchase of these type of knives.

Thank you.

I think the two most important elements in a kitchen after the food are a good knife and a cutting board. I have several different Japanese knives, and I use them multiple times a day, every day. They are absolutely worth it.

I suggest that you figure out what type of knife you want as a first knife. Most people will start with a Gyuto (or a Bunka), and you cannot go wrong with one of these.

Next you need to figure out what type of steel. I suggest starting with one of the powdered steels like R2. These modern powdered steels are very rust resistant (so if you forget to wipe the blade after cutting some veggies you don't have to worry about cleaning rust off the edge), keep an edge for months of daily hard use, and sharpen as easily as any other steel. The really nice traditional Japanese steels are Shirogami (white steel) and Aogami (Blue steel). These steels have wonderful cutting feel, keep a beautiful edge, and are easy to sharpen. You have to wipe the blade down immediately after use to prevent rust; bear in mind that these knives are usually clad in stainless steel, so the only part that you need to worry about rusting is the edge, where the cutting steel is exposed.

The next thing to figure out is the blade finish. I suggest that you get a blade that has some kind of texture to the finish on the stainless steel. The purpose of the texture, apart form aesthetics, is to help prevent the food from adhering to the knife. I have a Kiritsuke that has a beautiful Shirogami #2 edge - the weight of the knife is enough to cut through a potato; but it has a smooth finish on the blade that adheres to dense veggies like sweet potato or squash, which makes the blade stall midway through cutting these dense vegetables.

Finally, you need to figure out the length of the knife that you want. Longer is better because you can start a cut and just keep travelling through with a long blade, making a very clean and easy cut. You can also use different parts of the blade for different tasks. A long blade is 240mm or longer. I suggest that if it is your first knife, get something in the 200mm to 210mm range. That's long enough without feeling awkward trying to get used to a 240mm blade.

 The Shun brand is talked about a lot, and there is nothing wrong with them. They are made using VG10 steel, which is tried-and-true. However, there are better choices at better prices out there. It is worth it to learn a little and then choose something that suits your wants and needs. Over the past 5 years I have acquired a Nakiri, a 135mm paring knife (a Petty), a 204mm Gyuto, and a 240mm Kiritsuke. They all look and feel like they are brand new despite daily use. Surprisingly, I think my 135mm Petty is my favourite and gets used as much as my Gyuto and Kiritsuke, although they all have their place. It takes a bit of time to figure out exactly what you want, so I don't recommend spending huge bucks on a single knife right now, or on buying a knife set.

You will also need a good cutting board. I have fallen in love with my Larchwood board. A good cutting board is thick, made from end-cut wood, and has rubber feet that are screwed into the bottom of the board. 

RyanStl

Yeah, not getting a good cutting board is like putting standard gas in a sports car 

2HB

GrateEggspectations said:

For Canadians, the best place to shop for Japanese knives is Knifewear (knifewear.com). They have only a few physical stores, one of which is in my hometown of Ottawa.  

I have not purchased from them, but I really enjoy their Youtube channel. Have you purchased from Sharp Knife Shop (sharpknifeshop.com) in Hamilton (and now Toronto)? They have excellent inventory and prices, offer great service with one free sharpening, and ship very quickly. I have purchased most of my knives and stones from them, and have been really pleased. 

GrateEggspectations

2HB said:

GrateEggspectations said:

For Canadians, the best place to shop for Japanese knives is Knifewear (knifewear.com). They have only a few physical stores, one of which is in my hometown of Ottawa.  

I have not purchased from them, but I really enjoy their Youtube channel. Have you purchased from Sharp Knife Shop (sharpknifeshop.com) in Hamilton (and now Toronto)? They have excellent inventory and prices, offer great service with one free sharpening, and ship very quickly. I have purchased most of my knives and stones from them, and have been really pleased. 

I am not familiar with that shop, but just looked at their site. They carry quite a different selection from KnifeWear, which is neat. Didn’t have many, if any, offerings from Moritaka, Takeda, Masakage, Fujiwara (only two in stock), etc., which are all names I’m more familiar with. Did see some overlap though. 

All of my knives have come either from KnifeWear (prices are rich, but I love the selection of steel) or have been purchased second hand - which is my preferred option. Kijiji yields some great finds - especially when sellers don’t use targeted search terms, leaving them sitting undetected for weeks; almost bought another Takeda this week. I’ve bought a few blades directly from some locally-known chefs over the years. Next time I’m in Toronto, maybe I’ll try to hit Sharp Knife in person. 

Hansm

Henkle all the way

RRP

I honestly have NOT read the older replies, nor even these new ones...BUT let me add my opinion. I used to have a formula for deciding how much to spend on these knifes which took into account my age, the price of said knife, who  (if ANYONE other than GOODWILL) would even get this knife...and another thing or two!

My conclusion time and time again was to buy the Asian style (meaning the thinner blade, easier to sharpen) VICTORINOX brand stainless Swiss made (and quite reasonably priced and well made) knives and I have a few of them. 

OTOH if you have a son or daughter or just want to impress (???) someone then go ahead and spend YOUR money! 

lkapigian

^^^Victorinox for the win, my knives are work horses , not for show, ….abused lost and found , love them 

RyanStl

lkapigian said:

^^^Victorinox for the win, my knives are work horses , not for show, ….abused lost and found , love them 

Pleny of people in the food prep bus. (won't call them chefs because I don't want to be chastised as I don't know their diploma) use Victorinox that post at Kitchen Knife Forums.

dannys

By "European" do you mean French or German?  There is a subtle difference. The French knife is "flatter" longer and has a sharper point" . A German knife is what most people use and it has a more rounded point.

German knives are easier to use in a rocking motion while French knives would be easier with a "slicing" motion.

Hansm

German steel all the way

nolaegghead

The typical story goes like this:

1. People have dull knives.

2. They buy new knives.

3. Eventually they become dull.

4. They fail at sharpening them.

5. So they buy more expensive knives.

6. They stay sharp longer.  But eventually dull.

7. Go to 5....

RyanStl

nolaegghead said:

The typical story goes like this:

1. People have dull knives.

2. They buy new knives.

3. Eventually they become dull.

4. They fail at sharpening them.

5. So they buy more expensive knives.

6. They stay sharp longer.  But eventually dull.

7. Go to 5....

You forgot end loop after 6 loops, knife gets so expensive you are afraid to use and stays sharp forever. Go back to 2.

RRP

RyanStl said:

nolaegghead said:

The typical story goes like this:

1. People have dull knives.

2. They buy new knives.

3. Eventually they become dull.

4. They fail at sharpening them.

5. So they buy more expensive knives.

6. They stay sharp longer.  But eventually dull.

7. Go to 5....

You forgot end loop after 6 loops, knife gets so expensive you are afraid to use and stays sharp forever. Go back to 2.

You are correct, but I think yet another loop needs to be added?

Unless there is a heir in the wings then the executor will sell those EXPENSIVE, UNUSED blades not knowing what they are for 2 bucks each at a garage sale or just dump them off at GOODWILL!

I’m just such a fan of VICTORINOX  knives which will serve the needs of any egger here for their lifetime! 

And as for keeping those VICTORINOX razor sharp then it really takes little effort using a Chef’s Pro sharpener! but…if you want to buy expensive blades then scroll back up to @nolaegghead’s point #1.

MediumRarely

Knives are like Ceramic cookers. Many people like many things. In the end they are tools. Value is personal. Cost benefit is personal. As mentioned above, the choice of the tool is a very minor factor in the outcome unless we learn to use and maintain them well. Love the discussion - very informative to many people.

Maybe the most important tool in the kitchen is each one of us. I know my wife occasionally thinks I am a tool.

Thatgrimguy

I have to have german because we don't take care of ****. It will sit in the sink, it will get run the diswasher and it'll still cut and won't chip. Love my Wusthof Ikons