Safety of reusing a brine?

GrateEggspectations

I made a great brine (thanks Cen-Tex Smoker!) and used them to soak some pork chops overnight. Was going to throw the brine out this morning but got to thinking, any reason I can't save this to do another round of chops or a whole chicken next week? Or would this be unsafe?

Sea2Ski

If within a few days I would reuse it myself. Say 2-3 days. 
Next week?  I would make a new batch. It is only salt water and some seasoning.  Lots of factors to consider to stay safe.  Salinity level, how cold your fridge is etc....
Not sure why I am picking 3 days now that I think about it.  I am certainly no expert.  

XLentEGG

I thought about it once , since I had so much , but talked myself out of it . Now I just make half batches and throw it out .

GrateEggspectations

Yeah, I tend to make half or quarter batches also. Not so concerned about the cost of ingredients; rather, just the time and effort in putting it together, bringing to a boil, cooling down, etc. I figure whatever it is poured over will be hitting the grill at high temperatures, so I was just curious as to whether there was any reason it would not be safe to reuse.

DieselkW

If I had the urge to re-use brine, I would simply boil it again to sanitize it.

Maybe keep the lid off and reduce it down to a higher salinity, then add ice to cool it off if you're in a hurry.

GrateEggspectations

DieselkW said:

If I had the urge to re-use brine, I would simply boil it again to sanitize it.

Maybe keep the lid off and reduce it down to a higher salinity, then add ice to cool it off if you're in a hurry.

Good call. Why didn't I think of that? 

DieselkW

GrateEggspectations said:

Good call. Why didn't I think of that? 

Quick story: I was a 10 year old kid helping put up a nativity scene at church. It was on a hill so we spent a lot of time leveling the front end with bricks and cinder blocks.  When we were done, one of the adults walked to the double yellow line in the street and noticed the little wooden fence around the property was directly obstructing the middle of the scene.
We started looking for something to put under it to raise it so the eye line from the street would be over the fence. More cinder blocks were discussed...

One of the adults said: "Why not just drag it two or three feet up the hill instead?

Engineers. Always looking for the simplest solution.

Doc_Eggerton

DieselkW said:

If I had the urge to re-use brine, I would simply boil it again to sanitize it.

Maybe keep the lid off and reduce it down to a higher salinity, then add ice to cool it off if you're in a hurry.

Some toxins that are released by what grows in spoiled foods are not destroyed by boiling.  I would suspect that you could keep it if refigerated for as long as you would feel safe keeping uncooked meat.

GrateEggspectations

Doc_Eggerton said:

DieselkW said:

If I had the urge to re-use brine, I would simply boil it again to sanitize it.

Maybe keep the lid off and reduce it down to a higher salinity, then add ice to cool it off if you're in a hurry.

Some toxins that are released by what grows in spoiled foods are not destroyed by boiling.  I would suspect that you could keep it if refigerated for as long as you would feel safe keeping uncooked meat.

Thanks. This is helpful. Sounds like a few days at best.

Darby_Crenshaw

The french farmhouse method of storing meat was to fill a crock with a mild brine, toss in a few joints of meat to keep (not to cure, though it would, mildly), and let it go in-perpetuity. Virtually forever. 

Periodically, you'd refresh the brine with some new herbs and salt, boil the wood that weighted things down, boil the brine, and skim off foam

the earthenware crock was kept in a cool dark place, at ambient temperatures year round

A benefit some foodies assert is in addition to brining, you eventually achieve a sort of "house brine", something local. Affected by the local conditions. "Terroir". Who knows. 


this method of pre-refrigerator storage is a thousand plus years old, probably much older, and likely based in the prehistoric method of water-cache storage. 

The legendary mild french loin hams, brined hocks, shank, butt, etc. are a result of this mild herbed brine, and effect less of a cure than anything intended for hanging or storing long term. Meat could be stored in these crocks for weeks on end. No farmhouse family was eating their way through an autumn-slaughtered hog any time soon

My grandfather, not speaking about reusing brine, and certainly not about french farmhouse food storage, emphasized that we must understand what we are doing and why we are doing it before we try to improvise and solve things ourselves. He was referring to me using his tools, but thankfully, this advice applies to all things 

northGAcock

Darby_Crenshaw said:

The french farmhouse method of storing meat was to fill a crock with a mild brine, toss in a few joints of meat to keep (not to cure, though it would, mildly), and let it go in-perpetuity. Virtually forever. 

Periodically, you'd refresh the brine with some new herbs and salt, boil the wood that weighted things down, boil the brine, and skim off foam

the earthenware crock was kept in a cool dark place, at ambient temperatures year round

this method of pre-refrigerator storage is a thousand plus years old, and based in the prehistoric method of water-cache storage. 

The legendary mild french loin hams, brined hocks, shank, butt, etc. are a result of this mild herbed brine, and effect less of a cure than anything intended for hanging or storing long term. Meat could be stored in these crocks for weeks on end. No farmhouse family was eating their way through an autumn-slaughtered hog any time soon

My grandfather, not speaking about reusing brine, and certainly not about french farmhouse food storage, emphasized that we must understand what we are doing and why we are doing it before we. He was referring to me using his tools, but thankfully, this advice applies to all things 

Darby.....where do you come up with all this stuff? You sir.....must be well red read.

DieselkW

Doc_Eggerton said:

DieselkW said:

If I had the urge to re-use brine, I would simply boil it again to sanitize it.

Maybe keep the lid off and reduce it down to a higher salinity, then add ice to cool it off if you're in a hurry.

Some toxins that are released by what grows in spoiled foods are not destroyed by boiling.  I would suspect that you could keep it if refigerated for as long as you would feel safe keeping uncooked meat.

Name one toxin that could possibly be present in used brine. Remember the salinity level of brine, and the preservative quality of sodium chloride.

Boiling kills everything -- giardia, cryptosporidium, listeria, other bacteria, and viruses. 185°F (85°C) for a few minutes will do it, and boiling for one minute will do it. (Boiling is lots of big bubbles, not just a few small bubbles on the side of the pot.)
Yes, as I understand it, Clostridium spores are heat resistant but are not toxic by ingestion. Clostridium bacteria and botulism toxin which can be toxic by ingestion are easily destroyed by boiling water.

Darby_Crenshaw

northGAcock said:

Darby_Crenshaw said:

The french farmhouse method of storing meat was to fill a crock with a mild brine, toss in a few joints of meat to keep (not to cure, though it would, mildly), and let it go in-perpetuity. Virtually forever. 

Periodically, you'd refresh the brine with some new herbs and salt, boil the wood that weighted things down, boil the brine, and skim off foam

the earthenware crock was kept in a cool dark place, at ambient temperatures year round

this method of pre-refrigerator storage is a thousand plus years old, and based in the prehistoric method of water-cache storage. 

The legendary mild french loin hams, brined hocks, shank, butt, etc. are a result of this mild herbed brine, and effect less of a cure than anything intended for hanging or storing long term. Meat could be stored in these crocks for weeks on end. No farmhouse family was eating their way through an autumn-slaughtered hog any time soon

My grandfather, not speaking about reusing brine, and certainly not about french farmhouse food storage, emphasized that we must understand what we are doing and why we are doing it before we. He was referring to me using his tools, but thankfully, this advice applies to all things 

Darby.....where do you come up with all this stuff? You sir.....must be well red read.

was taught to always ask "why?", rather than just nod and take people's word for things

The Cen-Tex Smoker

Darby_Crenshaw said:

northGAcock said:

Darby_Crenshaw said:

The french farmhouse method of storing meat was to fill a crock with a mild brine, toss in a few joints of meat to keep (not to cure, though it would, mildly), and let it go in-perpetuity. Virtually forever. 

Periodically, you'd refresh the brine with some new herbs and salt, boil the wood that weighted things down, boil the brine, and skim off foam

the earthenware crock was kept in a cool dark place, at ambient temperatures year round

this method of pre-refrigerator storage is a thousand plus years old, and based in the prehistoric method of water-cache storage. 

The legendary mild french loin hams, brined hocks, shank, butt, etc. are a result of this mild herbed brine, and effect less of a cure than anything intended for hanging or storing long term. Meat could be stored in these crocks for weeks on end. No farmhouse family was eating their way through an autumn-slaughtered hog any time soon

My grandfather, not speaking about reusing brine, and certainly not about french farmhouse food storage, emphasized that we must understand what we are doing and why we are doing it before we. He was referring to me using his tools, but thankfully, this advice applies to all things 

Darby.....where do you come up with all this stuff? You sir.....must be well red read.

was taught to always ask "why?", rather than just nod and take people's word for things

It worked

gdenby

DieselkW said:

Doc_Eggerton said:

DieselkW said:

If I had the urge to re-use brine, I would simply boil it again to sanitize it.

Maybe keep the lid off and reduce it down to a higher salinity, then add ice to cool it off if you're in a hurry.

Some toxins that are released by what grows in spoiled foods are not destroyed by boiling.  I would suspect that you could keep it if refigerated for as long as you would feel safe keeping uncooked meat.

Name one toxin that could possibly be present in used brine. Remember the salinity level of brine, and the preservative quality of sodium chloride.

Boiling kills everything -- giardia, cryptosporidium, listeria, other bacteria, and viruses. 185°F (85°C) for a few minutes will do it, and boiling for one minute will do it. (Boiling is lots of big bubbles, not just a few small bubbles on the side of the pot.)
Yes, as I understand it, Clostridium spores are heat resistant but are not toxic by ingestion. Clostridium bacteria and botulism toxin which can be toxic by ingestion are easily destroyed by boiling water.

Here's 2 toxins requiring boiling or hotter:

Escherichia coli
Staphylococcus aureus

The growth of both is inhibited by NaCl, but I've seen concentrations as high as 20% needed for eradication.

Darby_Crenshaw

those aren't toxins though, right?

they create toxins.  kill them, and they aren't there to produce toxins

anyway, it comes down to math.  for some, any risk at all is "too much".  how they pick which things are too much risk though, i dunno.  because there are much higher risks elsewhere, which people generally overlook.

it's when people don't understand what they are dealing with that the overestimate the risks.

i've seen people throw out frozen turkey because it was  year old.  they didn't understand it, so they assumed it was bad.  wasn't "worth the risk".  there was no risk, but that didn't matter.

bacteria are on the outside.  rinse the meat, put it in a properly salted brine, and you can leave it there for weeks

but if all anyone wants is a quick answer, with no explanation or thought required, then the answer is 'no', throw it out.

no skin off my nose.  it's just a waste, and waste that can be reduced with education

westernbbq

I always err on the side of safety when it comes to stuff like this.   Throw out the awesome used batch you made, take notes and replicate it in the future

Darby_Crenshaw

I know plenty of folks that would throw it out for safety's sake, and then drive to the store for more salt without wearing a seatbelt

shrug

to each his own. I am always going to err on the side of not guessing 

gdenby

The organisms I mentioned produce poison that requires boiling heat to destroy the toxins. Some staph strains are now producing toxins that survive pressure cooking.

Don't know if UV or high concentrations of chlorine ions w. damage them.