Volkswagon TDI (turbocharged direct injection) scandal

nolaegghead

Do you have one?  Whaddya think?

And what about man-made global climate change through greenhouse gasses?

Sardonicus

It's a hoax.  Inhofe found snow.

nolaegghead

nolaegghead

Sardonicus said:

It's a hoax.  Inhofe found snow.

“You can believe NASA and you can believe what their satellites measure on the planet, or you can believe the Senator with the snowball. The United States Navy takes this very seriously, to the point where Admiral Locklear, who is the head of the Pacific Command, has said that climate change is the biggest threat that we face in the Pacific…you can either believe the United States Navy or you can believe the Senator with the snowball…every major American scientific society has put itself on record, many of them a decade ago, that climate change is deadly real. They measure it, they see it, they know why it happens. The predictions correlate with what we see as they increasingly come true. And the fundamental principles, that it is derived from carbon pollution, which comes from burning fossil fuels, are beyond legitimate dispute…so you can believe every single major American scientific society, or you can believe the Senator with the snowball.”

—Steve Mirsky

SGH

nolaegghead said:

And what about man-made global climate change through greenhouse gasses?

Sardonicus

Pshaw.  Facts.

Ah, well.
What are the odds that the eventual GOP presidential candidate will acknowledge AGW before July 18th?
A rectitudinous litmus test, could be.  Should be.

SGH

nolaegghead

So I did a little research earlier today and here's what's going on (to the best of my recollection).

Diesel engines run most efficiently and with the most power when they're running very lean.  That means an excess of O2.  Us chemists call this an oxidizing environment.  Gasoline engines run best (most efficient with lowest emissions) in a stochiometric environment - perfect mix of fuel to air.

The problem is, with an oxidizing fuel/air mix, you get NOx - NO and NO2.  Catalytic converters don't work well with more than 1% O2 in the exhaust effluent.

So the particulates are captured by a filter, but the NOx is the problem.  Traditionally this is solved by adding urea to the exhaust...but that means you can run out of this (a liquid).  At the very least you have to maintain it and it's expensive.

In 2008 or so, they came out with an NOx trap.  This thing traps the NO and NO2, but it gets filled up.  The way to keep the excess NOx from going out the exhaust is to reduce (remove oxygen) the NOx.  To do this, you run rich (reducing) - slam it with diesel fuel (almost all organics are reductants) and with the heat > 200C, the NOx is reduced to N2 and H2O.  Clean.

Problem is, if you run rich, you use more fuel and get less power. 

So what VW did was somehow detect if the system was being monitored, probably through a back pressure monitor, and run the system rich.  Then when operating without monitoring, back off on the fuel and run lean - better power and fuel economy, but up to 40x more NOx emissions.

Germans, they think of everything.

nolaegghead

Throw a little science out there and everyone's suddenly narcoleptic. Including me.

G'nite, and please, let the crazies bite.

SGH

nolaegghead said:

G'nite, and please, let the crazies bite.

Good night my long haired friend. Sadly my night is just beginning.

U_tarded

i think @Eggcelsior has a tdi audi.  i roll a gas golf but this is a mess, especially if you add in all the european models.  

@nolaegghead you talk about adding urea, would this be like DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) that is on most domestic diesels in the last few years?  

nolaegghead

@U_tarded

xactly *burp* (excuse me). 

That's the other avenue they could have taken.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a non-hazardous solution, which is 32.5% urea and 67.5% de-ionized water. DEF is sprayed into the exhaust stream of diesel vehicles to break down dangerous NOx emissions into harmless nitrogen and water.

nolaegghead

Yep, @Eggcelsior (AKA Dylan AKA Beaker) - he's lamenting this development.  I've been talking to him via SMS and of course mocking him and kicking him when he's down.  He's been crying for hours like a....a...sad sad person.  And it's just a car.

nolaegghead

So my prediction on the fix is this (and I might be off-base because I don't know the capacity or the extent of the fraud from VW):

A firmware or whatever update of the ECU (engine control unit) is a fairly easy install - either a chip or a flash of EPROM on the ECU.  Whatever the mechanism, VW will have to run the engine richer. 

What you'll see is a reduction in fuel economy and torque in normal driving. 

Depending on the capacity of the NOx trap thingy, if they can maintain it with sufficient ability to capture NOx, the full power (rated HP and torque) shouldn't be impacted in short term acceleration.

The reasoning I have is the fuel air mix can be rich enough to keep the trap fairly unsaturated with NOx.  To develop full power when flooring the pedal, the ECU can run lean and the cost is filling up the trap quick.  But there will be a maximum time for this before power falls off.  They can compensate in cycles by dumping fuel in the trap (if it's hot enough otherwise you get hydrocarbon emissions) and expedite reducing the NOx.

Anyway, what I'm saying is it isn't the end of the world.  You'll still get where you're going, probably a little money in your pocket from one of the many class action lawsuits, and you'll get the rated HP if conditions are right, on demand.

What I've noticed is VW drivers, especially jetta drivers behave as if they're in Porches.  They drive more ass-hole-y than the average driver.  I respect that, being a sporty driver.  But they can't do it as much, and they'll have less miles between fill-ups. 

Now, a pause, for schadenfreude...... there.   done.

Worst case is you don't get the recall fix because you don't want to give up the good mileage and performance.   There's a possibility there's a lot of people that bought the cars because of the performance/good mpg combo that don't give a F about the environment.  Well, I can see a that car being declared as a salvage title until that update is made.  Which means you can sell it (depending on state) but you can't put full coverage on it.  That would reduce the value of your car.  Queue more class-action lawsuits. Wait, there are at least 25 in the works right now.

Sleep tight my friends!

buzd504

nolaegghead said:

What I've noticed is VW drivers, especially jetta drivers behave as if they're in Porches.  They drive more ass-hole-y than the average driver.  I respect that, being a sporty driver.  But they can't do it as much, and they'll have less miles between fill-ups. 

Now, a pause, for schadenfreude...... there.   done.

Heh.  I have a 2015 Passat TDI that I bought in June.  Fun car.  Thanks for the explanation of the science.

First, I'm pretty irritated with VW about the whole thing because of the environmental concerns.  While I don't feel a quick infusion of NOx is the end of the world, we should all do our part.  On top of that, it sounds like that I'm not going to end up with the car I bought (I was interested in the performance vs fuel economy combo).  There's no getting around the patch - any warranty work and service is going to get it regardless.

If the difference is incremental, I can probably live with it.  Or if there's a buyback, maybe the dealership in Mobile will bump me to the BMW diesel (sure).  Regardless, unless there is a significant change in performance, I'll probably get my panties twisted for an evening or two and let it go.

And I don't usually drive like an ****, but it's nice to know that I can when I want to.

nolaegghead

@buzd504 I'm totally with you alignment wise.   This is all early stage prognostication.  So I want to make sure everyone knows I'm on a BBQ forum full of idiots and I'm one of them saying stupid stuff.

First of all, are you in on Brisket Camp?  Your car should make it there, if not I will send a rescue vehicle to airlift you via helicopter to the venue.  Second, you passat drivers are always buzzing my ass as I do 95 MPH on I-10.  For f*cks christ, I'm just having fun.  (I'm kidding here) (edit - not really).  I passed up a state cop on the access road today doing 90 and he didn't pull me over.  I'm blessed apparently, not getting a ticket although I should have received at least a thousand of them in the last year.

Yada yada..we all have fun...I don't like to drive a Yugo. 

Give me a PM if you're making it to camp.  Sorry if you already told me, I'm totally dyslexic.  We're gonna make this like 1999.

Also F-little stephan.

Then end.

(drops mic)

Owww.  my foot

SGH

texaswig

I like vw's. But they are a pain in the a** to work on. Even the most simple stuff on any other car,is the worst thing ever to work on. I've seen body guys have a complete meltdown over door handle adjustment. I know a guy that just spent about 1800 on a downpipe/ exhaust and ecu reprogram,over a 3000 dollar mechanical fix. He's getting crazy mpg and horsepower. 

Legume

I'm sure the guys that develop and sell aftermarket performance ECU tunes are salivating at the prospect of many new clients who will want to undo the fix or even improve upon their current TDI performance.  If you're right @nolaegghead, there are going to be tons of car owners learning about the tune market for the first time that may have a little angry money in their pockets to spend.

6 months from now might be a great time to buy a used TDI, I'll bet lots of people will want to get out of them.  It will be interesting to see if VW will have to offer any buybacks, prob only if the performance can be shown to be markedly different.

DoubleEgger

Pretty piss poor from VW but at least they weren't knowingly endangering lives like the folks at GM. 

buzd504

nolaegghead said:

 

First of all, are you in on Brisket Camp?  Your car should make it there, if not I will send a rescue vehicle to airlift you via helicopter to the venue.  Second, you passat drivers are always buzzing my ass as I do 95 MPH on I-10.  For f*cks christ, I'm just having fun.  (I'm kidding here) (edit - not really).  I passed up a state cop on the access road today doing 90 and he didn't pull me over.  I'm blessed apparently, not getting a ticket although I should have received at least a thousand of them in the last year.

Turns out I am going to have to work during the day all weekend, so I can't hang out all day as I would like, but I should at least be by Saturday evening.

Eggcelsior

Good thing my TDI is out of warranty. Might as well do the DPF delete.

Dobie

I dont have a VW, never cared for them. Class action suits will pay owners for the loss of value, performance etc. and fines will be record setting to make an example of them OR they will hire Tom Brady's attorneys and make it all go away.
oh yeah and....

SGH

I would like to drill sexy Sara

theyolksonyou

This forum always makes me moar smarter. 

fishlessman

nazis....still trying to take over the world. this time thru climate control

Davec433

So I'm supposed to trust a bunch of scientists who are receiving government funding to do "research" when their is proof that these models have been altered to show the results they want. Hard to buy into specially before Climate Change was Global Warming and before that it was Global Cooling.

GATraveller

Sardonicus

Davec433 said:

. . .

So I'm supposed to trust a bunch of scientists . . .

No.  No, you're not.
Trust politicians instead.  They only accept funding from altruistic sources.
Really.

scottc454

nnolaegghead said:

So what VW did was somehow detect if the system was being monitored, probably through a back pressure monitor, and run the system rich.  Then when operating without monitoring, back off on the fuel and run lean - better power and fuel economy, but up to 40x more NOx emissions.

Germans, they think of everything.

This isn't quite right. That is not how a diesel works. A diesel has no throttle blades, so it's always breathing in as much air as it can.  It needs to because the compression is how it ignites the air/fuel mixture (no spark plugs). To add power, you just add more fuel, so you can't make it richer without going faster.  In the olden days, this is why you'd get black smoke when you floored a diesel - it would squirt in more fuel, but the engine wouldn't be revving enough yet to breathe in the necessary amount of air (they've got like fancy computers now to stop you from doing that)

With a gas engine, if you run it too lean, it burns too hot and you'll melt pistons. 

While I'm being pedantic, I must point out that fixing this won't help global warming. NOx causes smog.  We're f#@%'d on global warming. 

SGH

Buffalo test.....