Apple juice

NoobZero

When cooking a butt, does using Apple juice instead of water in the drip pan affect the flavor of the final product? 

tcracing

Don't need anything in drip pan.

Zmokin

 I don't think any significant flavor will transfer from your drip pan into the meat.  However, if you want your drippings to taste like apple juice, go for it.

NoobZero

If there's no liquid in the pan, want it just burn up?

Zmokin

NoobZero said:

If there's no liquid in the pan, want it just burn up?

What temp are you cooking at and is the cook indirect?

theyolksonyou

Make sure there's an air gap between your indirect stone and the drip pan. If it's not disposable, line with foil. That way you can clean up easily and your drippings won't burn. No need for liquid and your protein will still be moist. 

NoobZero

Zmokin said:

NoobZero said:

If there's no liquid in the pan, want it just burn up?

What temp are you cooking at and is the cook indirect?

Turbo at 350. My previous research indicated that the drippings will burn if there is no liquid in the pan possibly causing a negative effect on taste. And I am cooking indirect.

Skiddymarker

Raise the drip pan off the deflector with some 1" foil balls to keep it cooler and you can throw some salt in the drip pan, cover the bottom 1/8" depth and it will keep the spooge from burning. If you want some juice flavour, inject the butt. Most of it oozes out during cooking anyway, but I like to inject if using heat >300ºF. 

Carolina Q

No liquid, no salt, no air gap under drip pan, no foil, no problem. At 250* anyway. Don't know about turbo. 

THEBuckeye

I've used Apple Juice before. Mixed w/ water in a drip pan. Butt tasted like smoked butt - Apple undetectable.

Liquid can also add heat and cause the temp to raise. Any liquid in a drip pan won't last throughout a low and slow. You have to keep adding liquid and that can take your 250 to 300 and it's difficult to lower once the ceramic's been at 300 for a while. 

RedSkip

There is no way that adding liquid generates heat.  Liquid absorbs heat and actually inceases humidity within the egg, this humidity helps cool your meat.  It's the whole premise for the "stall".  

You have to keep adding liquid because it's evaporating off, and the less liquid in the pan the harder it is to regulate the temperature.  The heat from the fire overpowers the heat capacity of the water/liquid remaining and your temperature walks up.  Thus you have to add more...

If if you want to control your temperature, learn to control your fire.  

Zmokin

THEBuckeye said:

I've used Apple Juice before. Mixed w/ water in a drip pan. Butt tasted like smoked butt - Apple undetectable.

This reminds me of something I did pre-BGE.  One time after marinading a butt in apple cidar with onions and other stuff, I poured the marinade into the waterpan of my Brinkmann Electric Vertical Water smoker.  When the butt was done, the cidar had reduced in volume, collected meat drippings and had cooked the onions & garlic in it.  I used a teaspoon and tasted this liquid and it had a nice smokey flavor to it.  I decided to use it for a BBQ sauce, so after reducing some whiskey on the stove, mixing the 2 liquids and adding lots of tomato paste and other ingredients, I had a wonderful tasting BBQ sauce.  It made a lot of BBQ sauce, so to preserve it, I home-canned it.  I've given some away and I continue to use this wonderful sauce, but as I made it "on the fly", I do not have a list of ingredients or quantities.  If I ever attempt this again (it was a lot of work), I will attempt to document my recipe.  I know it will not be exactly the same, but as long as it tastes good, who cares.

Zmokin

RedSkip said:

There is no way that adding liquid generates heat.  Liquid absorbs heat and actually inceases humidity within the egg, this humidity helps cool your meat.  It's the whole premise for the "stall".  

You have to keep adding liquid because it's evaporating off, and the less liquid in the pan the harder it is to regulate the temperature.  The heat from the fire overpowers the heat capacity of the water/liquid remaining and your temperature walks up.  Thus you have to add more...

If if you want to control your temperature, learn to control your fire.  

Actually, I would expect the added humidity to help prevent the stall.  The stall is caused by the evaporation of moisture from the meat.  If the chamber has an already high vapor pressure content of H2O, this will prevent the moisture from evaporating which will stop the Latent Heat of Vaporization of occurring (which is 540 cal/gm) and the moisture in the meat will continue to rise in temp at the rate of 1 cal/gm.

Is there a knowledgeable chemist on this forum that would like to comment on my theory.

RedSkip

As the water heats up, the air becomes saturated (humidity rises).  Since you are cooking meat, the temperature is naturally "colder" than the air surrounding it.  The colder meat, like a soda can in summer, draws moisture from the air and cause liquid to condense on the meat. The air flow past the meat causes it to cool, same principle as a fan in the summer.  A fan doesn't blow cold air on you, it blows hot/warm air over your sweaty body, which causes cooling.

This is the same principle as moisture leaving the meat and cooling on the meats surface - "the stall", but from the opposite direction. 

Now it doesn't pool water on the surface, but when you're in the stall the meat is going through evaporative cooling.  We wrap, aka "Texas Crutch", because the foil elimInates the meat's ability to have its juices evaporate.  "It's like running a race with a rain jacket on, you'll still sweat but the air can't help cool you down."

Where does this air flow come from when cooking on the egg?  Nature convection currents from the design of the egg - intake and exhaust principles.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the statement that "liquid adds heat" is just plain wrong.  Only thing that adds heat is fire = fuel, air, oxygen.

RedSkip

Lastly, @Zmokin your statement of "high vapor pressure of water" is not applicable.  Vapor pressure deals with condensable liquids in a state of equilibrium within a closed system.

The principle you mention is the premise behind pressure cookers.

Since the egg is an open system, there is no measurable pressure that builds.  

Yes, the heating value of water is 1 cal/gm, but this only strengthens the argument that you are stealing heat from the cook when you add a water pan - heat is consumed to increase the temperature of the water pan and not your food.

Thus, adding water does not generate heat, but actually steals heat from the entire system - increasing the time/slowing down your cook.

paqman

Wet bulb

Zmokin

I beg to differ @RedSkip There is vapor pressure regardless of open or closed systems.  And in a high humidity environment, the rate of evaporation is directly related to the vapor pressure present.  I do agree that adding water does not add heat, and that it does take heat to warm the water in the pan just like it takes heat to cook/ warm the meat.  but I stand by my statement that I expect the pan of water to reduce the stall, not lengthen it.  To change my mind, you will either need to better explain your theory or show me some hard empirical evidence.  I also know that condensation does not cool the meat, it heats the meat, so when the meat is colder than the steam in the Egg, as the water condenses, it gives up it's 540 cal/gm to the surface it condenses on.
This is why steam burns the holy piss out of you, the heat your body absorbs from the condensing steam is huge, hence the extreme burns you get from steam.

RedSkip

@zmokin Pressure is pressure and when an egg is open to atmosphere, there will not be a considerable buildup of that pressure. Yes,there will be a differential but I doubt you could even measure it with a gauge. Unfortunately I don't have a lab in my backyard to measure it.  

Condesatation does cool the meat, how do you think Condesatation cools your body when you sweat?  Even if it's hot air, the fact is the liquid is cooler and when the air passes over it it cools.  You or a hunk of meat - condensation and evaporation doesn't care.

Now it doesn't cool it where you'll actually see the temperature drop, but rather you experience the "stall".  The external temp drops at the same time the internal temp increases.  The net gain is zero and therefore the temp remains the same for hours, until there is no more internal moisture to be removed.  At that point in time, the temperature increases and you power through to final temps.

This is not a new theory, if you're seriosuly interested...
http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/the_stall.html

RedSkip

@Zmokin In reference to your steam comment...  Yes, steam burns the piss out of you, but that's because your skin is dry.  If your skin was wet, the liquid would have to heat up first before your skin would get burned. 

The reality of your skin being totally wet with a layer of liquid would be impossible to accomplish in everyday life, as well as that liquid layer being "thin" with poor insulating properties - it would still get hot very fast.  

Thus you'll still get burned. You'd get burned less, but it would still hurt like hell.

-Skip

Zmokin

Excuse, me but evaporation cools your body, not condensation.
You need to retake some chemistry and physics courses.

Ladeback69

All the butts I have cooked at 300 to 350 with no drip pan.  I just wrap the plate setter with foil and I have had no problems.   If you use a drip pan just put some foil balls under it to create an air gap.  I've never had to add water for moisture or to keep the drippings from burning. 

RedSkip

Condensation in the form of the evaporation process, got me on a technicality.  I don't need chemistry lessons. 

The cooler meat causes humidity in the egg to condense and when the convection currents move past the liquid, it evaporates.  

I'm done discussing this, have a nice evening.

Zmokin

RedSkip said:

The cooler meat causes humidity in the egg to condense and when the convection currents move past the liquid, it evaporates.  

That is a net zero process, when the moisture condenses on the cooler meat, it loses the 540 cal/gm to the meat, so it heats the meat, then if it re-evaporates, it takes the 540 cal/gm with it.  If you don't think condensation heats the item it condenses on, you truly don't understand that condensation does the exact opposite of what evaporation does.

Quoted from Wiki "The enthalpy of condensation (or heat of condensation) is by definition equal to the enthalpy of vaporization with the opposite sign: enthalpy changes of vaporization are always positive (heat is absorbed by the substance), whereas enthalpy changes of condensation are always negative (heat is released by the substance)."

NoobZero

Wow, with all the technicalities discussed here, I guess the bottom line is, I don't need liquid in the drip pan.