OT - any plumbers around? Relocating shower

busmania

So, I am relocating my shower to open up my bathroom a little bit.  It was on an inside wall (3 walled shower, I am converting it to two walls, and two walls of glass).  I am moving it to where the white box is in the picture.  My question is, on the other side of the enclosed hallway is an outside wall (with insulation).  Is it ok to move to this wall that is on the inside of the hallway.  I am not moving it to the very outside wall but I want to make sure I don't have freezing issues.  I am in Denver where it gets below zero maybe 7 days a year.  Will this be ok or do I need to insulate more?  the very outside wall IS insulated.  I hope this makes sense!

 

p.s, I figured id ask here because it is a smart group of people here!

busmania

Here is a little more detailed picture. 

TexanOfTheNorth

I' confused... the wall that you're moving too does not look like a hallway. It looks more like attic space. Is the shower on a 2nd floor?

busmania

Shower is on second floor.  The wall I removed is already gone (where the current piping is in the picture).  The "hallway" is actually the space above the stairs leading up to upstairs.  Does that make more sense?

busmania

How about this picture?  The yellow lines show the empty space above the stairwell. 

TexanOfTheNorth

Okay, so it's not literally a hallway but dead space above the stairs that lead to the 2nd level? Is there a vapor barrier on that external wall?

busmania

Exactly.  I see insulation and am 99% sure there is something (like a cardboard insulation) between the insulation and the exterior siding.  So, it goes (from my vantage point, inside out) insulation, cardboard thingy insulation type stuff, siding, outside.

fishlessman

my sinks are on outside walls and will freeze if i dont open the cabinet when it gets that cold. camp at maine my brother ran pex and added the black pipe insulation, seems to work better, that shower was always getting nipped. on the shower alot of the times theres a drop down that goes to the lower faucet to drain that usually gets capped off, thats were they freeze up and break the cap, dropping down with the pex there might help. you need an access door so maybe just leave it open on those few nights when its cold and windy. cold never bothered the pipes in either house, cold and wind yes

Little Steven

You aren't going to show the pic?

sumoconnell

I think you'll be fine, but I'd insulate anyway for other reasons.. it's good sound dampening, and it's cheap.  Around those faucets you'll get a bit of noise... why not insulate? 

TexanOfTheNorth

I don't want to be the one to tell you it's okay because it only has to freeze (and burst) one time and you'll have a real problem on your hands.

It might be less conventional but, another option would be to run the supply lines up (what I'll refer to as) the back wall and put your controls on that wall. You could then run the shower head supply to the "outside" wall and pitch the pipe to the shower head so that it drains down (i.e., out through the shower head).

Little Steven

Where I am it is a bad idea to run piping in an exterior wall space. It is against code. I don't understand where you are putting the shower but I think you are putting it to the right of the attic space? If you have room a false wall in front of the insulated wall and on the inside of the vapour barrier is best. You only need a 2x2 frame and put your cement board on that.

busmania

Little Steven said:

You aren't going to show the pic?

what do you mean, ive posted three pics!

fishlessman said:

my sinks are on outside walls and will freeze if i dont open the cabinet when it gets that cold. camp at maine my brother ran pex and added the black pipe insulation, seems to work better, that shower was always getting nipped. on the shower alot of the times theres a drop down that goes to the lower faucet to drain that usually gets capped off, thats were they freeze up and break the cap, dropping down with the pex there might help. you need an access door so maybe just leave it open on those few nights when its cold and windy. cold never bothered the pipes in either house, cold and wind yes

See, its not technically an outside wall which is why I am wondering.  I thought about running a heater vent into the dead space but that opens up a whole other can of worms.

sumoconnell said:

I think you'll be fine, but I'd insulate anyway for other reasons.. it's good sound dampening, and it's cheap.  Around those faucets you'll get a bit of noise... why not insulate? 

I probably will add insulation for peace of mind.  Can I insulate only between the two 2x4s where the pipes run or would that be a waste?

Little Steven

@busmania I meant that for @fishlessman

busmania

TexanOfTheNorth said:

I don't want to be the one to tell you it's okay because it only has to freeze (and burst) one time and you'll have a real problem on your hands.

It might be less conventional but, another option would be to run the supply lines up (what I'll refer to as) the back wall and put your controls on that wall. You could then run the shower head supply to the "outside" wall and pitch the pipe to the shower head so that it drains down (i.e., out through the shower head).

I see what you are saying.  So the "on/off" valve would be on one wall and the shower head on the other?

 

 

Little Steven said:

Where I am it is a bad idea to run piping in an exterior wall space. It is against code. I don't understand where you are putting the shower but I think you are putting it to the right of the attic space? If you have room a false wall in front of the insulated wall and on the inside of the vapour barrier is best. You only need a 2x2 frame and put your cement board on that.

again, it is not the outside wall.  but it is deadspace with no heat vents.  once I close it all off, it is just empty space above my stairwell.

guess ill call a plumber and get an estimate and ask him while he is here.

sumoconnell

I'd insulate all the walls - I don't want folks hearing my wash myself... washing off bacon.

Good idea to get a plumber and ask.  worst case, you'll get a professional opinion.  Best case, you hired a plumber..

TexanOfTheNorth

Yes.

Little Steven

busmania said:

TexanOfTheNorth said:

I don't want to be the one to tell you it's okay because it only has to freeze (and burst) one time and you'll have a real problem on your hands.

It might be less conventional but, another option would be to run the supply lines up (what I'll refer to as) the back wall and put your controls on that wall. You could then run the shower head supply to the "outside" wall and pitch the pipe to the shower head so that it drains down (i.e., out through the shower head).

I see what you are saying.  So the "on/off" valve would be on one wall and the shower head on the other?

You have an arrow pointing to the wall saying it is an outside wall. Trying to help here. Not a plumber but I am an electrician and do a lot of industrial pipefitting for water cooling systems.. Have rebuilt a couple of houses too. 

 

Little Steven said:

Where I am it is a bad idea to run piping in an exterior wall space. It is against code. I don't understand where you are putting the shower but I think you are putting it to the right of the attic space? If you have room a false wall in front of the insulated wall and on the inside of the vapour barrier is best. You only need a 2x2 frame and put your cement board on that.

again, it is not the outside wall.  but it is deadspace with no heat vents.  once I close it all off, it is just empty space above my stairwell.

guess ill call a plumber and get an estimate and ask him while he is here.

busmania

maybe this awesome illustration will help!

TexanOfTheNorth

Asking a local plumber is certainly what I'd do.

Little Steven

Is the dead space open to the attic and exterior wall? I can see where you don't want to use the false wall. Look into pex tube and sharkbite connections. They have a better performance than copper at low temps. You could also run tees at the water connections and leave a few feet of deadheaded empty tube above the valves and showerhead to allow expansion in the event of freezing. Maybe wrap the tube as well.

FearlessTheEggNoob

Maybe you can turn that troublesome dead space into a usable storage area by opening up the wall that has the wire shelf, and then framing up some nice built-in shelves or cabinets? Then the wet wall becomes an interior wall. That looks like a lot of good storage area that is currently going to waste.

busmania

Little Steven said:

Is the dead space open to the attic and exterior wall? I can see where you don't want to use the false wall. Look into pex tube and sharkbite connections. They have a better performance than copper at low temps. You could also run tees at the water connections and leave a few feet of deadheaded empty tube above the valves and showerhead to allow expansion in the event of freezing. Maybe wrap the tube as well.

Nope the deadspace is not open to anything.  The ceiling in the deadspace  is insulated as is the outside wall.

busmania

o, and I will be using PEX.  bought all the stuff last night.

fishlessman

busmania said:

o, and I will be using PEX.  bought all the stuff last night.

see that pipe plug hanging down between the two faucets in your picture, thats where ive seen them freeze and break, im not sure the best way to adress that, maybe a shrt piece of pex and a cap so that it can expand in that area when freezing?  the pipes in my sink are in the dead space of the sink cabinet, not in the insulated wall, and it still freezes. the tub up north the frozen pipes were in the hollow dead space under the tub sides and they also froze a couple times, not in the insulated wall. the pex should cure that and you can put that tube insulation on so any drafts wont nip the pipes. i would also leave an opening between the crawl space and closet opened oe maybe a louvered vent in there for access. you can also put a layer of insulation hanging down over the pipes after you put the pipe insulation on, thats all cheap insurance

fishlessman

and per little stevens request, the lofted shower room of the rich and famous fishlessman, winter of 2011

Eggcelsior

Fishy, I've heard of a toilet, but never a shower near the beer fridge. Kudos!

fishlessman

Eggcelsior said:

Fishy, I've heard of a toilet, but never a shower near the beer fridge. Kudos!

hopper was more comfy in the living room, didnt even need to plumb it in

Letz4wheel

You could always do as I do and put it wherever the heck you want to. When it freezes just redo it X(

Skiddymarker

Move it, it won't freeze. The ceiling of your hallway is sloped to ensure there is not a heat trap (warm air rises) at the top of the stairway. What I think you have is a dead warm space above the stairway and behind the wall opposite where the current plumbing stack is. The slope ceiling dead space is on the warm side of your insulation, it may be cooler in the dead space but it will not be below freezing. The sloped floor of the dead space is just drywall, so in the past few winters if you have not had any condensation forming on living side stairway ceiling, the space is warm - you are good to go. Wise to put some sound insulation if you are concerned with some one in the hallway hearing the shower running - otherwise I'd leave it. 

EDIT - You could open the wall behind the wire shelf shown on the right of your first pic. This could provide storage and will ensure there is warm space behind the shower plumbing. 

busmania

Letz4wheel said:

You could always do as I do and put it wherever the heck you want to. When it freezes just redo it X(

you see, I am trying to build trust with the wife when it comes to household projects.  before we met, I restored an entire house but she doesn't seem to think I can do simple tasks!  If it leaks, im screwed!

 

Skiddymarker said:

Move it, it won't freeze. The ceiling of your hallway is sloped to ensure there is not a heat trap (warm air rises) at the top of the stairway. What I think you have is a dead warm space above the stairway and behind the wall opposite where the current plumbing stack is. The slope ceiling dead space is on the warm side of your insulation, it may be cooler in the dead space but it will not be below freezing. The sloped floor of the dead space is just drywall, so in the past few winters if you have not had any condensation forming on living side stairway ceiling, the space is warm - you are good to go. Wise to put some sound insulation if you are concerned with some one in the hallway hearing the shower running - otherwise I'd leave it. 

EDIT - You could open the wall behind the wire shelf shown on the right of your first pic. This could provide storage and will ensure there is warm space behind the shower plumbing. 

This is actually a great idea.  I could use the "dead" space for shelving for my wifes billions of pairs of shoes!  if I sell it as more closet space, she is sure to go along with it!

This is my first winter in the house so I do not know if it has had any condensation in the past. 

also, if I re-enclose the dead space, I will be sure to probe my thermopen through the closet wall on a super cold day this winter to see how cold it is in this dead space area.