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OT - Bourbon Question

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bicktrav
bicktrav Posts: 640
in EggHead Forum
For all you bourbon lovers, I have a question.  Why does the distillery matter so much?  There's a bourbon called Jefferson's Presidential Select 18 that was apparently made at the Stitzel-Weller distillery.  Pappy Van Winkle used to be made there, but has since moved to the Buffalo Trace Distillery.  The fact that the Jefferson's comes from Stitzel-Weller makes it ridiculously sought after and very hard to find.  Why?  What does the distillery matter?  Shouldn't it be the recipe that matters?  I mean if the mash is the same and the barrel types are the same and the process is the same, why does it matter where it was produced?  Also, why would Stitzel-Weller be so famed if Pappy is now being made at Buffalo Trace?  Shouldn't Buffalo Trace whiskeys be harder to find given that that's where Pappy is now coming from?  
Southern California
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  • jls9595
    jls9595 Posts: 1,533
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    I have no idea but that's an interesting question.
    In Manchester, TN
    Vol For Life!
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  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
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    Some things are more subjective than we want to admit.


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    Seneca Falls, NY

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  • Skiddymarker
    Skiddymarker Posts: 8,522
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    With spirits, I think it is the recipe that creates the taste, which as you point out can be portable. Beers tend to make claims about water supply - but then today's technology a brewer can reproduce almost any water anywhere. 
    The other consideration is aging. In barrels in non-climate controlled sheds or in climate controlled buildings. I'm sure geography might have some influence.
    Delta B.C. - Whiskey and steak, because no good story ever started with someone having a salad!
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  • Eggcelsior
    Eggcelsior Posts: 14,414
    edited April 2014
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    Stitzel-Weller closed in 1991. It appears that Jefferson's was aged in S-W barrels from 1991. PVW is distilled by Sazerac under contract with VW at BTD.

    Since it is barreled in a finite resource I would surmise that is what is leading to the demand.

    image
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  • bicktrav
    bicktrav Posts: 640
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    @Eggcelsior - that's interesting. Definitely explains a bit of the demand. I still don't quite see why it would matter as far as the end-product is concerned, but that's certainly some clarifying information.
    Southern California
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  • B&BKnox
    B&BKnox Posts: 283
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    Stitzel-Weller distillery was in Louisville KY and was the location where Pappy made it's name.  It has long been considered that some of the finest whisky's ever made were distilled and stored at SW in Louisville.  That has lead to the mystique of anything that was made there, and the Jefferson's presidential reserve, was in fact made there making it very desirable and extremely rare.  Water and weather conditions and storage in very old brick building may have contributed to some of the uniqueness of those bourbons.  I think the 15 year that Pappy makes is every bit as good as the 18 yr jefferson's I have for what it's worth.
    Be Well

    Knoxville TN
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  • 4Runner
    4Runner Posts: 2,948
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    Marketing!  It wasn't that long ago I would walk into my local liquor store and pickup at bottle of Pappy for $50 for the 12 and $99 for the 15.    Then all of sudden demand went through the roof but also supply became more limited.  Great business model.   Stinks for the consumer though.   
    Joe - I'm a reformed gasser-holic aka 4Runner Columbia, SC Wonderful BGE Resource Site: http://www.nakedwhiz.com/ceramicfaq.htm and http://www.nibblemethis.com/  and http://playingwithfireandsmoke.blogspot.com/2006/02/recipes.html
    What am I drinking now?   Woodford....neat
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  • bicktrav
    bicktrav Posts: 640
    edited April 2014
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    @B&BKnox - Can you recommend anything that gets you close to those bourbons that's a little more accessible than Pappy or Jefferson's Presidential?  I'm in the market for some, but the scarcity is just insane.  Only place I've been able to find them is at auction.
    Southern California
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  • Acn
    Acn Posts: 4,424
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    I also think that Jefferson doesn't make any bourbon of their own; they buy from various producers and then blend them together. So you're paying the premium for that expertise, much like you would from a boutique winemaker who creates their own blends.

    LBGE

    Pikesville, MD

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  • Eggcelsior
    Eggcelsior Posts: 14,414
    edited April 2014
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    I greatly enjoy this site, which is where I grabbed some info. Goes into what @ACN is saying.


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  • B&BKnox
    B&BKnox Posts: 283
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    @bicktrav  as to bourbons if you want to stick to the wheat bourbons of which Pappy is part of then try the W L Weller 12 yr old bourbon.  I have been told by more than one large liquor store owner that the recipe for weller is the same as for Pappy.  The difference being as the Master distiller begins the tasting process after several years the barrels that stand out become labeled pappy and move to the better storage locations in the ware/store house.  I have not compared the 12 yr pappy and the 12 yr weller but I certainly enjoy the 12 yr weller and its $15-$20 cheaper than pappy 12 yr and available year round.  If you want just a good bourbon at a great price I am a big fan of Jim Rutledge's work at Four Roses, try their single barrel bourbon,  I love the spice notes of four roses.

    Be Well

    Knoxville TN
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  • Eggcelsior
    Eggcelsior Posts: 14,414
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    Four Roses is fantastic. It's the bottle I'm sipping off of now.
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  • bicktrav
    bicktrav Posts: 640
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    @B&BKnox - Thank you!  Will check both out!
    Southern California
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  • beteez
    beteez Posts: 548
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    Elmer T Lee is only around $30 is a great buy.
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  • bicktrav
    bicktrav Posts: 640
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    Anyone ever tried Rowan's Creek? I've heard good things about that one.
    Southern California
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  • SpanishMoon
    SpanishMoon Posts: 33
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    I think Buffalo Trace is also a great value bourbon.
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  • Eggcelsior
    Eggcelsior Posts: 14,414
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    SpanishMoon said:

    I think Buffalo Trace is also a great value bourbon.

    Yes. Very smooth.

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  • B&BKnox
    B&BKnox Posts: 283
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    Thats what is so great about bourbon they all taste pretty good and the great ones are not that expensive compared to scotch.  Trace, Bulliet, elijah craig 12, 4roses single barrel and weller old antique 107 are some of my go to's.  Elmer T is tasty, eagle rare, bookers, bakers, knob single, all good. Man I could just keep going.  Love bourbon.
    Be Well

    Knoxville TN
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  • Mattman3969
    Mattman3969 Posts: 10,457
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    Eggcelsior said:
    Four Roses is fantastic. It's the bottle I'm sipping off of now.

    I am sippin Four Roses Small Batch. Good stuff on ice.

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    analyze adapt overcome

    2008 -Large BGE. 2013- Small BGE and 2015 - Mini. Henderson, Ky.
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  • jls9595
    jls9595 Posts: 1,533
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    My favorite is the Woodford Double Oaked but the best cheap bourbon I've had is Very Old Barton. Give it a shot if you haven't. I do like all the ones you mentioned, especially Bulliet for the price.
    B&BKnox said:
    Thats what is so great about bourbon they all taste pretty good and the great ones are not that expensive compared to scotch.  Trace, Bulliet, elijah craig 12, 4roses single barrel and weller old antique 107 are some of my go to's.  Elmer T is tasty, eagle rare, bookers, bakers, knob single, all good. Man I could just keep going.  Love bourbon.

    In Manchester, TN
    Vol For Life!
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  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
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    If a guy liked Laphroaig and Lagavulin, which bourbon should he try?
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    Seneca Falls, NY

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  • Lowflyer
    Lowflyer Posts: 785
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    Bulleit is a great value.
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  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
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    "value" is for poor people. What would you recommend for someone who can afford to play?
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    Seneca Falls, NY

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  • PhillyBoy23
    PhillyBoy23 Posts: 50
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    For a great value bourbon, try Corner Creek Reserve. It's really good and under 25 bucks a bottle. Also it comes in a wine bottle, which is pretty unique.
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  • GeorgeS
    GeorgeS Posts: 955
    edited April 2014
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    SenecaTheYounger said:
    If a guy liked Laphroaig and Lagavulin, which bourbon should he try?

    Here you go! If you have money to burn. http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/04/13/5-most-expensive-bourbons/ http://www.boldsky.com/insync/life/2013/top-ten-most-expensive-bourbons-to-try-034042.html
    Bristow Virginia XL&Mini One of the best feelings in life is watching other people enjoy the food I cooked!
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  • Mattman3969
    Mattman3969 Posts: 10,457
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    SenecaTheYounger said:
    "value" is for poor people. What would you recommend for someone who can afford to play?

    Sorry dude but that is way over the top ARROGANCE. What if Bulliet is an awesome bourbon but reasonably priced? No need to look down on anybody or call them "poor" because they see a product as a value.

    -----------------------------------------

    analyze adapt overcome

    2008 -Large BGE. 2013- Small BGE and 2015 - Mini. Henderson, Ky.
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  • GeorgeS
    GeorgeS Posts: 955
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    Mattman3969 said:
    SenecaTheYounger said:
    "value" is for poor people. What would you recommend for someone who can afford to play?

    Sorry dude but that is way over the top ARROGANCE. What if Bulliet is an awesome bourbon but reasonably priced? No need to look down on anybody or call them "poor" because they see a product as a value.
    That was kind of my point. The link I posted has a $10,000 bottle.
    Bristow Virginia XL&Mini One of the best feelings in life is watching other people enjoy the food I cooked!
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  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
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    I'm kidding, for crying out loud. Laphroaig is $39.

    If that makes me a snob, then you must be drinking rubbing alcohol.

    Laproaig and Lagavulin are peaty and smokey. So the question remains, what would be a commensurate Bourbon?

    (and try not to be so offended by people who are goofing. It's the internet. If you are so uptight HERE, then one could probably use your anus as a pencil sharpener)
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    Seneca Falls, NY

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  • caliking
    caliking Posts: 18,731
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    SenecaTheYounger said:
    "value" is for poor people. What would you recommend for someone who can afford to play?
    I thought Woodford Double Oaked tasted almost like scotch.

    #1 LBGE December 2012 • #2 SBGE February  2013 • #3 Mini May 2013
    A happy BGE family in Houston, TX.
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  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
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    Excellent point. You are absolutely correct.

    I forgot about WDR. Fantastic stuff

    Thank you
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    Seneca Falls, NY

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