OT: Drunk Drivers

Gulfcoastguy said:

Friday my nieces husband dropped her and my grandnephew( in the picture) off at the preschool that she manages. He then continued to his place of employment at a decorative ironworks. Then a drunk driver, without insurance, rammed his 4 door pickup into the back end of their new one month old Prius Prime. It was my nieces favorite color and the first new vehicle for either of them. More  important 20 minutes earlier that little boy had been in the back seat. His father got by with a concussion and two days of vertigo. Drunk all you want to but don't drive afterwards.

Sounds like all dodged the bullet which is GREAT.

Up here in IL my 89 year old neighbor who fell off an extension ladder 3 years ago has been months and months in recovery, nursing homes and weeks and weeks of home recovery with paid night persons. Now in home recovery he still can't walk without his walker much less hold his head upright.

He insisted that he wanted to renew his drivers license. When his wife drove him to the IL db he was passed WITHOUT any restrictions such as driving in day light only!  

DAMN....the man can't take a p*ss much less a sh*t without physical help of his wife or a paid nurse and yet he got an Illinios driver's license! 

stlcharcoal said:

alaskanassasin said:

They were unannounced in Raleigh, they snagged anyone turning around etc. They also had a bus on site with a magistrate.

Unannounced....fine.  But how is it legal to stop someone who turns around (so long as they do not commit a traffic violation in doing so?)  Its just like an officer claiming they have the right to search your car if you refuse a search.....plenty of case law says refusing to surrender your rights is not RAS nor grounds for a warrant.  

The local guys told me the same thing.....if we see anybody get off at the Shell station prior to the checkpoint, we just pull them over anyway.  Not legal.

There used to be "safety checks" over in IL.....East St. Louis specifically.  They would set up checkpoints and check peoples licenses, insurance, and registration.   If you were white or have out of state plates, they'd wave you right through.  But otherwise you'd be stopped.  They issued a ton of tickets since it was a poor neighborhood and people didnt know their rights.  Never saw a single one of those in the nicer areas in the 24 yrs I lived in IL. 

It needs to be policed but not at the expense of our personal rights.  It seems all to often these days that people are okay with violating others rights as long as it benefits a cause they believe in......

I think they should change the IL DMV driving competence test to being able to piss and crap without assistance.   Seems legit...

Glad everyone except the Prius turned out ok. Lost a friend I grew up with about 8 years ago. She had just gotten married,  and returned from their honeymoon. ..
Got hit by a drunk illegal....he hopped, skipped and jumped the border back down to mexico

@nolaegghead. I can appreciate input on that, however statistics can be easily manipulated to show whatever facts the observer wishes to convey.  
 
There is the classic example of a positive correlation can be made with association of ice cream with drowning deaths in summer....however realistically this is not true....what is really happening is its summer....there's naturally more ice cream consumption.....its hot and summer people are swimming ...swimming leads to drowning deaths...not ice cream....

Now saying that,  I'm not saying or trying to argue all illegals are drunks, or criminals...but there are certain cases and this was one.

DuckDogDr said:

@nolaegghead. I can appreciate input on that, however statistics can be easily manipulated to show whatever facts the observer wishes to convey.  
 
There is the classic example of a positive correlation can be made with association of ice cream with drowning deaths in summer....however realistically this is not true....what is really happening is its summer....there's naturally more ice cream consumption.....its hot and summer people are swimming ...swimming leads to drowning deaths...not ice cream....

Now saying that,  I'm not saying or trying to argue all illegals are drunks, or criminals...but there are certain cases and this was one.

If I let my car registration sticker expire, I generally speed less/drive more carefully until I get a new sticker.  I don’t want to draw more attention to myself while I’m driving a car with a lapsed registration and get a ticket.  

The problem with that tragic story about your friend’s death is that the inclusion of the outcome (hopped, skipped back over the border) implies that his actions after the crime had some bearing on the crime in the first place.  Like, I’m not here legally so I might as well enjoy it and break all the laws I can and just bail back down to Mexico when this joy ride comes to an end.  This feeds this recent characterization that’s growing in popularity among white people with gray or orange hair that illegals=criminals=more crime.  The PEW article just puts forth a very straightforward look at the numbers which don’t support the characterization above.  No fancy statistics and I don’t think they’re putting forward an ice cream=drowning correlation, they’re debunking one.

Gulfcoastguy said:

Mississippi  has required liability insurance for many years. It is a $1200.00 fine not to have it. I would like them to take it one step further: no liability insurance means no license tag and the insurance company to notify law enforcement if the insurance lapses.

NC has this law. One of my guys was pulled over and had his tag taken at roadside. They watched while he towed his car. Turned out DMV had issued the stop by mistake. Bad for him, but still a good law if you have ever been hit by someone with no insurance as I have.

milesvdustin said:

Yeah, drivers In IL suck. (I live in IL, way south) 

Seems everyone wants to tailgate 24/7. Just leave earlier!!!!! And when we get our obligatory 2" of snow, mass parking of cars in ditches ensues. Seems like nobody can just take a sec and slow down. 

Clearly you have never been to Arkansas...When I would drive back from Memphis I could not stand it. People would drive 65 (speed limit was 70) in the left lane all the time.  More so than they do here in IL.

Gulfcoastguy said:

TEXASBGE2018 said:

Gulfcoastguy said:

He started to run off but the truck wouldn’t go.

Straight to firing squad then as far as I'm concerned.

I would rather that he be jailed. While jailed he be dropped of at a job every day and picked up every evening. His income to be forfeited to pay for his jail costs and the damage that he has done. Why should he get the easy way out?

So he wakes up every day, eats breakfast, goes to work taking a job someone that isn't a criminal could use then gets his free ride back to jail (home) every night for dinner & bedtime, sounds a little too much like normal life to me, I think @TEXASBGE2018 had it right

Battleborn said:

stlcharcoal said:

alaskanassasin said:

They were unannounced in Raleigh, they snagged anyone turning around etc. They also had a bus on site with a magistrate.

Unannounced....fine.  But how is it legal to stop someone who turns around (so long as they do not commit a traffic violation in doing so?)  Its just like an officer claiming they have the right to search your car if you refuse a search.....plenty of case law says refusing to surrender your rights is not RAS nor grounds for a warrant.  

The local guys told me the same thing.....if we see anybody get off at the Shell station prior to the checkpoint, we just pull them over anyway.  Not legal.

There used to be "safety checks" over in IL.....East St. Louis specifically.  They would set up checkpoints and check peoples licenses, insurance, and registration.   If you were white or have out of state plates, they'd wave you right through.  But otherwise you'd be stopped.  They issued a ton of tickets since it was a poor neighborhood and people didnt know their rights.  Never saw a single one of those in the nicer areas in the 24 yrs I lived in IL. 

To address the legality of pulling over someone over that turns off from a checkpoint. It is perfectly legal to make the stop you described.  It is a Reasonable Suspicion stop. 
Reasonable suspicion is defined as when the facts or circumstances would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been, is being our about to be committed. This is also known as a Terry stop. Case law upheld in Terry v. Ohio. 
In this checkpoint scenario, if a checkpoint is well announced and a driver decides to turn out right before the checkpoint, it can be reasonably assumed that they are avoiding the checkpoint because they may be impaired. Once it is determined that the driver is not impaired, they must be let go because the RS for the stop had been satisfied. 

So how are you assuming that over the fact that they needed gas, went the wrong way, decided to hit the grocery store, or any of the other million reasons they could turn around?  How are you assuming they knew about it.....maybe they're from out of town?  I don't get how turning around PRIOR to a checkpoint (not in the checkpoint), and not making a traffic violation when doing so, automatically gives you RAS.  If you follow the guy for a while and see them swerve, drive too slow or fast, that's another story.  But refusing to participate is not grounds for it INSIDE the checkpoint either. 

When you stop that car after they turn around, or even in the checkpoint, do you inform them that they are NOT being detained?  If I roll down my window an inch, tell you I am not participating in this, and ask am I free to go, do you let the person go or continue to question them?  Similar scenario - someone walking down the street open carrying a firearm in my state, the police CANNOT stop and question that person for their ID or anything else.  Carrying a firearm is not illegal and should not draw suspicion just because someone doesn't like it--there so much abuse of this, that the state had to pass a law saying that carrying a firearm doesn't give a peace officer RAS.  So..... 

My whole point of this is that Terry v Ohio is something very useful to you guys.....it's been around MANY years and has even been expanded on instead of limited.  But if the police keep taking liberties on this, you *will* eventually piss off the wrong guy who will run this through the system.  If it's the right case for the ACLU, or other organization to latch onto, it will get very high in the court system.  You may see your very useful Terry stop/frisk go away.  I would prefer to see you guys use your fine police skills and education as a basis for stopping people vs. just stopping EVERYONE in a checkpoint like a bunch of untrained vigilantes.  

https://youtu.be/ZG12zsUow5M

GATraveller said:

Legume said:

DuckDogDr said:

@nolaegghead. I can appreciate input on that, however statistics can be easily manipulated to show whatever facts the observer wishes to convey.  
 
There is the classic example of a positive correlation can be made with association of ice cream with drowning deaths in summer....however realistically this is not true....what is really happening is its summer....there's naturally more ice cream consumption.....its hot and summer people are swimming ...swimming leads to drowning deaths...not ice cream....

Now saying that,  I'm not saying or trying to argue all illegals are drunks, or criminals...but there are certain cases and this was one.

If I let my car registration sticker expire, I generally speed less/drive more carefully until I get a new sticker.  I don’t want to draw more attention to myself while I’m driving a car with a lapsed registration and get a ticket.  

The problem with that tragic story about your friend’s death is that the inclusion of the outcome (hopped, skipped back over the border) implies that his actions after the crime had some bearing on the crime in the first place.  Like, I’m not here legally so I might as well enjoy it and break all the laws I can and just bail back down to Mexico when this joy ride comes to an end.  This feeds this recent characterization that’s growing in popularity among white people with gray or orange hair that illegals=criminals=more crime.  The PEW article just puts forth a very straightforward look at the numbers which don’t support the characterization above.  No fancy statistics and I don’t think they’re putting forward an ice cream=drowning correlation, they’re debunking one.

He wasn't talking statistics or making generalizations......he's relaying details of a actual event.  I'm sure the guy was here working real hard and living his best life (illegally).  Unfortunately, his expression of "freedom" included driving while impaired and concluded with the death of an innocent bystander.  Sorry this hard working young fellas actions don't fit y'alls immigration model.....statistically speaking.  
Give me a freaking break.  

His response was in response to an article that Nola quoted in which data is cited.  There’s a broader context here after his initial comment about the immigrant committing the DWI.

My bad.  I thought @Legume was saying that, statistically speaking, crimes committed by illegal immigrants were down and @DuckDogDr was fueling a misconception with his verbiage.

GATraveller said:

My bad.  I thought @Legume was saying that, statistically speaking, crimes committed by illegal immigrants were down and @DuckDogDr was fueling a misconception with his verbiage.

For sure he was also saying that, it simply didn’t come out of nowhere.