Another question for the meat scientists

NonaScott · June 2016

Low and slow vs 350 and above. Does cooking a roast like a rib roast or rump or eye round etc. at 225 to 250 for a long period time result in a more tender end product than cooking at 350 or above for a shorter time. Internal temp of 135 to 140 for both methods. What say ye. Thanks.

Skiddymarker · June 2016

I like the low and slow, with a reverse sear, torch, CI or hot egg. I think the lower temps give the smoke and rub time to work some magic on the meat. Often a rib roast is not seared at all - just low and slowed. Italian beef is cooked at 350º over broth, this has the result, IMO, of slowing the browning down. I've low temp cooked cooked Italian beef (inside/outside round) without the broth in an egg and the results are good.

Darby_Crenshaw · June 2016

take it to an extreme: cook a roast at 1200 degrees, and pull it off when it is 140 in the interior. what do you have? a tiny core at 140, and black death exterior, grey outer rind, getting progressively more rare toward the middle. lot of overcooked stufff, minimal 'good' stuff

there's a long series of paragraphs re slow roasting in the thread re: cooking a chicken. i won't repeat, and no one wants to read it anyway.

suffice to say. you can cook a roast at any temp. 220 is not barbecue. necessarily.

now, the other extreme. soak a roast in 140 degree water for so long, that the ENTIRE roast is 140 throughout.

take it out, and what do you have? perfect med/rare across the entire cross section

what's missing though? the crust (or 'sear').

you can cook this thing a hundred ways, all of which have adherents and fans.

but look to tradition for starters. tradition is often based in practicality. slow-roasted prime rib is a great thing. you get a crust *and* a cross section of beef that had no overcooked exterior surrounding a small core of the good stuff

but there are other ways to achieve this. all good. been repeated here so many times, it's not worth repeating (at least by me).

T-rex; xert; reverse sear; sousvide+sear; slow roast; sear/rest/roast; initial hot oven then lowered quickly; low oven, sear at the end. ad infinitum ad nauseum

all do essentially the same thing. there are of course differences in the results, and strengths and weaknesses of each. but we're usually looking for as much "ideal" meat (say, med/rare) with some crust. these all achieve that in their own way. a hot portion of the cook to form a crust, and a portion of the cook that gently raises the meat temp so you get a nice even cross section. these can occur in either order.

i still prefer slow roasting because it is the easiest, forms a crust without the need to jack oven temps, and provides a max cross section of ideal done-ness with minimum effort

lousubcap · June 2016

Low & slow will yield a consistent finish across the diameter of the roast. While the texture may be about the same, the consistent degree of doneness makes L&S my go to method for any beef roasts. Besides it takes longer and thus more SWMBO eggscape time

FWIW-
Edit: no meat scientist here.

NonaScott · June 2016

@Darby_Crenshaw. Understand and I do a lot of reading and also read the chicken post. What inspired the question was an article I read in a magazine while at the Doctor the other day. It suggested that cooking something slowly at a low temp prevented the meat muscle from contracting as tightly as cooking it at high heat. I also have always noticed that most eating establishments that serve Prime Rib always make it a point to mention that it was "slow roasted". So other than a more even cook and more time in the window of opportunity, is their really a benefit as far as texture or tenderness?

Darby_Crenshaw · June 2016

muscle doesn't contract. it's dead. proteins entangle and can contract, but this is at a microscopic level.

the contracting never occurs in the rare meat, because the proteins don't become as denatured. but when cooked, it happens in spades, especially in overcooked meat.

think of it this way.

re eggwhites. it doesn't matter what temp you cook an egg at. it matters what temp you take it to. if the egg white never cooks, it won't turn white.

if the roast beef never gets overcooked, it won't contract and squeeze out water. rare steaks express less liquid than med/rare/ med/rare express less than medium, which express less than well-done. cell damage.

people love juicy steaks, but you can NOT have juice running from a steak unless it has some portion overcooked (mostly in the exterior grey ring). juice is a sign of cell damage and the proteins denaturing and squeezing out water.

generally, if you cooked something more gently, you will get more meat which is not overcooked (in the effort to get that heat into the interior).

trying to say this a million ways and with multiple examples.

raw meat? no juice on the plate. well done overcooked roast, all the way to the center? the most juice on the plate. and so one in between.

minimize the overcooked, and you have minimized the juice lost.

it's up to you whether the texture is "better"

generally it seems people like a hotter exterior, because that frees up the so-called juice a bit. while leaving some middle that is medium rare.

and resting is really about letting it cool a bit. it is merely simple fact that the colder meat is after cooking, the less water is lost.

if you never cut that roast after cooking, and put it in the fridge. it will not express any liquid when cold. heat it up again, and there's the juice (water) again.

cold meat holds water. hot does not (McGee, not me)

NonaScott · June 2016

Darby_Crenshaw said:

muscle doesn't contract. it's dead. proteins entangle and can contract, but this is at a microscopic level.

the contracting never occurs in the rare meat, because the proteins don't become as denatured. but when cooked, it happens in spades, especially in overcooked meat.

think of it this way.

re eggwhites. it doesn't matter what temp you cook an egg at. it matters what temp you take it to. if the egg white never cooks, it won't turn white.

if the roast beef never gets overcooked, it won't contract and squeeze out water. rare steaks express less liquid than med/rare/ med/rare express less than medium, which express less than well-done. cell damage.

people love juicy steaks, but you can NOT have juice running from a steak unless it has some portion overcooked (mostly in the exterior grey ring). juice is a sign of cell damage and the proteins denaturing and squeezing out water.

generally, if you cooked something more gently, you will get more meat which is not overcooked (in the effort to get that heat into the interior).

trying to say this a million ways and with multiple examples.

raw meat? no juice on the plate. well done overcooked roast, all the way to the center? the most juice on the plate. and so one in between.

minimize the overcooked, and you have minimized the juice lost.

it's up to you whether the texture is "better"

generally it seems people like a hotter exterior, because that frees up the so-called juice a bot. while leaving some middle that is medium rare.

and resting is really about letting it cool a bit. it is merely simple fact that the colder meat is after cooking, the less water is lost.

if you never cut that roast after cooking, and put it in the fridge. it will not express any liquid when cold. heat it up again, and there's the juice (water) again.

cold meat holds water. hot does not (McGee, not me)

Thanks. I normally take the low method for roast and whole chickens just because of the evenness factor. My wife also thinks the chicken breast meat on the whole chicken has a softer texture than one roasted at high temp.

gdenby · June 2016

Every cut of meat may be considerably different. The roasts you mention all would benefit from different methods.

The method/temp depends on how much connective tissue there is, what kind of connective tissue it is (collagen or elastin,) how much fat, or lack of the previous.

In general, low and slow in the Egg is good for cuts w. lots of fat and collagen. Braising in liquid a bit better when there isn't much fat. Hot and fast when the meat itself is tender, but exterior fat needs crisping.

The University of Nebraska/Lincon has an online reference to the average tenderness, collagen, fat content etc. Look that up for further reference.

I'm assuming the results there are for animals raised to market standards, and not too old or under fed or heavily worked.

Darby_Crenshaw · June 2016

I don't agree though that tender cuts don't benefit from slow roasting

i am not trying to break down collagen when roasting. The thing never gets to the temp where fat renders or collagen melts.

The lower temp roasting method is about not overcooking any part of the meat, including the exterior. High heat is not a requirement for a crust. Not at all

gdenby · June 2016

I agree that slow roasting can be a benefit for tender cuts, particularly for breaking down the fat. But I'll have to blame you @Darby_Crenshaw for introducing me to steak tartare. Doesn't really need any heat at all.

My general rule is that if the meat is tender, blast the outside, get some quick browning, and enjoy. A matter of convenience.

Haven't come across any methods for tough cuts except low or braising, and just enough time to balance the water loss w. the gel creation. Assuming not adding extra fat or gel.

Another question for the meat scientists

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