DieselkW said:

@Darby_Crenshaw- are you a mechanical engineer?, you seem to be fluent in thermodynamics and fluid flow.

What I'm pondering is the heat loss from a metallic substrate. If it's true, as you say, that air is a better insulator than ceramic, I won't bother to refute that, but I can put my hand on the exterior of my egg. My infra red thermometer shows approximately 100f difference between interior and exterior.

Now, the Weber is designed to use air as an insulator, but what about the heat transfer properties of the exterior? If that thermal insulator is losing heat to atmosphere, the cooled air will drop, warmed air will rise, and create a convection in the annular space due to heat loss.

I'm wondering, and maybe you can tell me where my logic is incorrect; if the Weber is metal, with the heat transfer properties of metal, it doesn't much matter if air is a better insulator than ceramic, this contraption will spill waste heat into the atmosphere.

My opinion, but I am fairly certain it will use more lump than a Big Green Egg for the same cook, same temp, same duration.

A fellow on another forum posted a picture of a cook on this new Weber. The internal temp was over 600°F - the dome thermo was pegged - and he was resting his hand comfortably on the top of the dome.

I can't do that on my ceramic kamados when the internal temp is that high. You could do that on a Komodo Kamado but they are a different beast entirely. I believe you can do that on Akorns and they have insulation between their shells. 

Most ceramic kamados do not have insulation (the only exception I am aware of are the Komodo Kamados). They are just solid shells of whatever clay based glop they are made from. They will radiate heat just as well as a Weber kettle. The difference is the mass. Kamados are more stable solely due to that mass. Think cast iron skillet.

The top dome of the Weber is sealed. The air in there will be essentially dead air. Sure their will be "micro-currents" but I'm sure the Weber engineers did some modeling and found that the performance difference between the air space with and without some sort of additional insulating materials in that space was pretty minimal and not likely worth the additional manufacturing cost. Or maybe they didn't. Beats me.

The bottom is rather clever. The inner shell is not sealed to the outer shell. The inner shell stops just below the coal grate. So the air in between is heated by radiation from the inner shell and also from the bottom. That air may be a little more "swirly" but realistically, so what? 


The new Weber may well be a little less fuel efficient but so what?  Most people using the Weber are likely to be using good old Kingsford bricks which is generally cheaper than lump so while it may in fact use more fuel by weight the cost may be the same or even less even if it does use a bit more fuel.

The new Weber makes it pretty easy to add more fuel if needed but my guess is that most people that are using those aren't routinely going to be running 12+ hour cooks.

Earlier this AM I saw the table version live at my BGE (and Weber) dealer.  It is well built but waaay out of my price league.  I'm sure it will attract  those who have grown up with webers and are looking to move on to a new high-end charcoal cooker.  Cooking size of the XL and its sure appears like they used that price point (with platesetter and nest) as a target for the tri-pod model.  They will sell but it won't have the low&slow staying power of a BGE (and that will likely not be a factor for many who are looking to buy as those customers probably aren't familiar with a BGE) based on the available fuel volume.  
Weber knows their market-they get $1300 for their 36" kettle so this is not a reach for them.  Wonder what their guesstimated initial sales (year one) volume is?.  FWIW-

DieselkW said:

@HeavyG - I did not know the dome was sealed - but that makes sense, thanks.

The outer shell is Weber's signature porcelainized steel. The inner shell is apparently aluminum. There appear to be what I'm guessing are covered fasteners along the lower part of the inner shell. It's not totally airtight (which is a good thing) but any airflow would be limited to contraction/expansion.

I'm waiting for the first report of someone getting a raging fire going inside one of these things and melting the aluminum inner shell.

That will be fun!

How about just convert a Kettle grill to a smoker from Fire Craft?  It is a lot cheaper, but I guess you wouldn't have the air gap.  http://www.firecraft.com/product/smoke-e-z-22in?gclid=Cj0KEQjwosK4BRCYhsngx4_SybcBEiQAowaCJdV-In8DYcHuhxfP3J5RnFD1oZUkCPjkZMfgNcNqDSoaAh6z8P8HAQ

Compare it to the new Summit Charcoal grill I think I would try the above first.
 http://www.weber.com/grills/series/summit-charcoal/summit-charcoal-grill

It is looking like about the same price as what I paid for for my XL in the nest and a bunch of other goodies, but I would still take my egg, because the only thing that will rust on it is the hardware holding it together and it will out last the new Weber I bet.  I keep my WSM covered all the time when mot in use, but not my egg.  The new Weber has some SS parts, but it is mostly made I bet of their normal thin metal so if you get one keep it covered when not in use.  A good test will be when it gets cold.  The egg and other Kamados are well suited to do well in cold temps, it will be interesting to see how this will do.  I would buy another egg before buying this I believe.  I am interested in seeing one in person though.

Zippylip said:

Ladeback69 said:

I would still take my egg, because the only thing that will rust on it is the hardware holding it together and it will out last the new Weber I bet.

My money is on the opposite, my kettle is older than my 12 year old egg & the egg has far more rust on the one metal part it has than the entirety of the kettle.  I’ve also replaced the egg base, ring & box.  Granted all warranty items but nonetheless in that same period I’ve not had to replace a single screw on the kettle.  ‘Thin metal’ or not, weber grills last & in my single experience they last a lot longer than ceramics also with no fear of fracture (heat induced, drunken induced or other).  Despite all their good qualities, and there are many, ceramics are susceptible to problems that simply don’t plague weber metal.

You make some good points and that is good that your kettle is still gong strong, but has the metal parts on the egg rusted though yet?  I bet not.  Ceramic is going to crack and BGE knows this, that is why they have a life time warranty on the major parts of it.  In two years I have replaced 2 fire boxes, a plate setter and the fire grate that is CI, all replaced under warranty.  The reason I went to an Egg, was I was tired of replacing parts on my gas grill about every few years and it was not a cheap gas grill.  Weber is good and these will sell, but not to everyone.

 I believe over time my egg will be around longer then my WSM.  I also like using my XL egg more, because I don't have to keep feeding it charcoal to keep it going.  The WSM is easy to add wood to, but It is a pain to remember to keep checking it. This new grill you will have to open it up, remove the meat, open one of the doors on the diffuser plate and then add wood.  That's a hassle to me.  I just don't understand why this is so high in price for what you get.  If it was all made of Stainless, I could see it and that would I would be interested in.

IMHO I would rather buy another XL egg over this.  I am actually wanting a GoodOne Marshal Smoker or stand alone big smoker, but that is a different topic all together.

fishlessman said:

melting temp of aluminum is over 1100 degrees, can it get that hot

The new Weber allows you to have the coals at two different places in the base. Lower down for low and slow and higher up when you want to just grill something.

I can see someone building a bigger hotter fire with the coals on the upper level, closing the dome, walking away, getting distracted, and coming back later to see flames shooting out of the top vent as we've seen on some ceramic kamados. Haven't we all done that at least once?

I could see the aluminum if not melting at least deforming and ending up looking kinda like these aluminum grates:




Good times!

HeavyG said:

fishlessman said:

melting temp of aluminum is over 1100 degrees, can it get that hot

The new Weber allows you to have the coals at two different places in the base. Lower down for low and slow and higher up when you want to just grill something.

I can see someone building a bigger hotter fire with the coals on the upper level, closing the dome, walking away, getting distracted, and coming back later to see flames shooting out of the top vent as we've seen on some ceramic kamados. Haven't we all done that at least once?

I could see the aluminum if not melting at least deforming and ending up looking kinda like these aluminum grates:




Good times!

i havent seen one yet, i would assume that weber sized the lower vent so the dome would stay way under melting temps. if they did not weber may have some angry customers down the road with melted domes. the large bottom vent keeps the max temp down around 1200 with no fan device even if i have anthracite coal in there for the old school pizza flavor

According to this site, http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/rvalue.html and using 3.5 inches for air and 4 inches for a brick, air is not nearly as good an insulator as brick (assuming that a brick is similar to ceramic, although I'm not sure exactly the difference).  Probably air is about 3.5 x worse. @Darby_Crenshaw:  Where are you getting that air is a better insulator than ceramic? 

I think that on a comparison of these R values and assuming the walls are a bit thicker than the egg, that the Weber will use about 2.5 times as much fuel as the egg.  This is based upon estimates from Weber that it will last 10-12 hours on a 100 briquettes.  I think my large egg would last 25 hours on this much.

willymcnilly said:

Where are you getting that air is a better insulator than ceramic? 
 

Are we really talking air or vacuum?

Given that particles absorbing and radiating thermal energy is what dictates heat transfer, a space void of air (vacuum) is the best insulator you can have.

The question is, is the air space in between, full of air or is it closer to a vacuum.  Does the fire itself create a suction that pulls air, or keeps air out of the space in between the walls?  If the space in between is full of superheated air then that certainly wouldn't insulate well.  This guy that is putting his hand on the lid - how long was the fire at 600 degrees before doing that?  I can put my hand on the BGE when the thermometer registers 600 - as long as the ceramics haven't heated up yet.

The only way that I would buy this unit is to have definitive evidence in side by side comparisons that this grill is stable for hours and hours with no adjustment and that it has a better fuel efficiency than the ceramic cookers.  Unless the following weeks can prove that, then this just remains a "prestige" item that really isn't worth the price, IMO.

JohnInCarolina said:

I'll have my grad students get the specs and create a finite element model, so that we can do a coupled thermo-mechanical analysis of the whole system.  We'll throw in the fluid dynamics and rad transport because while those effects might be negligible, we won't know for sure until after a full analysis is done.  To be realistic, we'll model the food too, and use a Monte Carlo method to sweep the parameter space.  

Now, can anyone just tell me whether or not it's better to model the plasticity of ribs with an associative flow rule, or should we go with non-associative?  I'm talking about the collagen fibers, and not the bone, just so that nobody's confused.

Holy Sh*t <span></span>

Funny this thread is bumped. I've been watching those YouTube videos....in the back of my mind a voice is saying I could go for this grill....sell the large? 

Its the the new factor I think and something different. I read somewhere first production run already sold out. I'm now telling myself just get a damn table and spice up my eggs a bit and I'm just fine,

Zippylip said:

SkinnyV said:

Funny this thread is bumped. 

I read through the thread when it first popped up & there was some disagreement regarding how well this thing is actually insulated.  Seems that's not an issue assuming this video is accurate.

Price is still high but the free standing one is comparable to the XL in size & price.  And it'll never crack.  I'd love to have one of these

Sold one last week. 

@pgprescott -  are you in line for any demo cooks with that thing?  
And I'm curious as to the demographics of the customer who bought one if you can share.  

Got to put my hands on one at an Ace Hardware in Atlanta this week.  It was a table-mounted one with the kettle to the left side and the counter-top to the right.  It had one of those push-button igniters that never lasted more than 2 years in my old grills.  The metal table looked painted, not powder-coated.  The deflector inside was interesting with a butterfly-type design that easily opened to access the coal pit.  Will it deform after exposure to high heat, I'd think it would.

I wasn't too impressed with it.  Took my bag of Rockwood and moved along!