Bay leaves

Botch · April 2015

I gotta admit, I have no idea what bay is supposed to taste like, or even smell like. It's a staple in brines, and Italian gravies, stews, etc but, even laying a leaf on my tongue, I get nothing. I've even gone as far as heating a leaf in a bit of oil, cooling and tasting, and marinating in some booze (these both to release oil- or alcohol-soluble flavors) but, again, I can't taste anything.

My latest jar just hit its expiration date (I replace all my herbs/spices annually) but I'm not buying any more, it just doesn't add anything that I can tell. Maybe its my particular body chemistry, but there's just no flavor there at all.

Anyone else?

:-??

theyolksonyou · April 2015

How does a leaf expire?

Botch · April 2015

Its volatile oils eventually evaporate, and you then must turn over a new

....naah, too easy.

jtcBoynton · April 2015

Bay leaves do have a smell - which means they add flavor. To me, the smell is not very distinct. I view bay as contributing to the base flavor of a dish, and not an accent flavor. Bay leaves will be green when newly dried. They become a pale green over time and loose potency (like all dried herbs).

Roadpuke0 · April 2015

They have flavor and a smell. I just so happen to be re-acclimating mine to the sun after 5 month in doors.

gdenby · April 2015

Could be the there are several problems.

1. Your tongue is not so sensitive. I know that for myself, it now takes much larger amounts of flavor to get the same result as when I was younger.

2. Bay leaf has a longer shelf life than most herbs, but a year is the longest in common storage. My current batch only has effect when using 3 times the recipe am't. Its around 18 months old. Bought too much, but can't quite throw it away.

3. I've read, and a few tries indicate, that bay leaf flavor becomes anise/tarragon like only after cooking, but is quite volatile. Pick the leaves out, and serve the food quickly.

4. There are a bunch of herbs called bay leaf. I suppose they have slightly different flavor/aromas. And different ones may be less potent initially, and do not hold flavor as well as others.

Phatchris · April 2015

http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/03/ask-the-food-lab-whats-the-point-of-bay-leaves.html

Legume · April 2015

Fresh bay is very pungent, has a eucalyptus kind of flavor. It fades quickly in the dres leaves. I think the tree is called laurel bay. They can get huge.

Theophan · April 2015

I do think you probably had leaves that were too old. Sometimes I see fresh ones in the store, but at least look for dried ones that are as green as possible, not just olive bordering on tan.

Bay laurel has a wonderful sweet herby flavor, but I think it takes a little while of slowly cooking in a sauce to unleash most of it. I think there's a lot of variability depending on how fresh the leaves are, and also where they come from. I've seen recipes saying 1 Turkish Bay Leaf or 1/2 California Bay leaf, so maybe California ones might be stronger.

Theo

jtcBoynton · April 2015

According to Bill Penzey "Turkish bay leaves are the best in the world. Though not as strong as the California variety, they have a natural depth of flavor that the California bay leaves can't hope to match."

CtTOPGUN · April 2015

I kinda thought the same thing years ago. Just used Bay leaves because we always had or the recipe called for it. Did not really think much of the ingredient. That changed when a Penzey Spice store opened in my town. The Turkish Bay they sell is so much superior to the supermarket spice brands that it opened my eyes. Size, color, aroma, taste. All significantly better than any I had used before. I now buy most of my spices at that Penzey store. Well worth the modest extra expense compared to grocery store purchases.

Jim

Botch · April 2015

CtTOPGUN said:

That changed when a Penzey Spice store opened in my town. The Turkish Bay they sell is so much superior to the supermarket spice brands that it opened my eyes. Size, color, aroma, taste. All significantly better than any I had used before. I now buy most of my spices at that Penzey store.
Jim

This is interesting, and I'll give Penzey's a try. The bay leaves I've had weren't stale (as mentioned above, I rotate my herbs/spices annually, and I did my taste tests with a "fresh" jar). I have noticed on some cooking shows that the bay leaves they use look fresher/greener, was wondering about that.
And in LA once I did pick a leaf off a bay laurel tree, and the eucalyptus/Vicks came through strong and clear; but I guess, from above, that's not the true value a bay leaf brings to long cooking.

fishlessman · April 2015

used to think the same til i bought a bay laurel in a pot and picked the leaves fresh for use. easy to grow, my plant started as a stick with 6 leaves, theres probably 1500 leaves now. huge difference fresh verse dried

RRP · April 2015

fishlessman said:

used to think the same til i bought a bay laurel in a pot and picked the leaves fresh for use. easy to grow, my plant started as a stick with 6 leaves, theres probably 1500 leaves now. huge difference fresh verse dried

With your cold climate I assume yours is an indoor plant - right? What all do you use your fresh leafs in that you need that many handy to grab? I can only think of one recipe - a French chicken dish that I use any bay leafs in. Enlighten me, please!

fishlessman · April 2015

RRP said:

fishlessman said:

used to think the same til i bought a bay laurel in a pot and picked the leaves fresh for use. easy to grow, my plant started as a stick with 6 leaves, theres probably 1500 leaves now. huge difference fresh verse dried

With your cold climate I assume yours is an indoor plant - right? What all do you use your fresh leafs in that you need that many handy to grab? I can only think of one recipe - a French chicken dish that I use any bay leafs in. Enlighten me, please!

its in a pot indoors from dec thru march then outdoors, just use them in stews, sauces, braised dishes and chilis, cant keep up to the growth though

i can even taste the fresh stuff in a strong hot chili. i have most potted plants outdoors now, bay, rosemary, 3 figs, 4 apple trees....keiffer lime is still indoors, withe the keifer you cook the leaves. had some lemon grass that didnt survive indoors this winter

Fred19Flintstone · April 2015

I put them in marinara. I think the acid releases the flavor. It's also ground up and used in some rubs. I have a recipe that uses them in that way. I'm guessing they are in Old Bay?

Skiddymarker · April 2015

Botch said:

This is interesting, and I'll give Penzey's a try. The bay leaves I've had weren't stale (as mentioned above, I rotate my herbs/spices annually, and I did my taste tests with a "fresh" jar). I have noticed on some cooking shows that the bay leaves they use look fresher/greener, was wondering about that.
And in LA once I did pick a leaf off a bay laurel tree, and the eucalyptus/Vicks came through strong and clear; but I guess, from above, that's not the true value a bay leaf brings to long cooking.

Is there a Penzey’s in your neck of the woods? If you are going to order, we always get the smallest bag and then “share” which means I pay and my kids assume their share. As we always order at least once a year, it keeps them fresh (well as fresh as a dried leaf from Turkey can be)
I noticed that I can bend a leaf between my thumb and forefinger so that the stem and tip touch without the leaf breaking.
I also think the aroma and taste can’t be appreciated unless you make a tea, like green tea it must be simmered for at least 10-20 minutes and it will change the longer it cooks. Try the simmer for twenty minutes and then taste the “tea” to see if you can pick up the “Vick’s Vaporub”

jtcBoynton · April 2015

Fred19Flintstone said:

I put them in marinara. I think the acid releases the flavor. It's also ground up and used in some rubs. I have a recipe that uses them in that way. I'm guessing they are in Old Bay?

Don't believe Old Bay has any bay leaves in it. Name refers to a body of water, not the leaves.

buzd504 · April 2015

jtcBoynton said:

Fred19Flintstone said:

I put them in marinara. I think the acid releases the flavor. It's also ground up and used in some rubs. I have a recipe that uses them in that way. I'm guessing they are in Old Bay?

Don't believe Old Bay has any bay leaves in it. Name refers to a body of water, not the leaves.

It appears to, actually. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bay_Seasoning

Fred19Flintstone · April 2015

jtcBoynton said:

Fred19Flintstone said:

I put them in marinara. I think the acid releases the flavor. It's also ground up and used in some rubs. I have a recipe that uses them in that way. I'm guessing they are in Old Bay?

Don't believe Old Bay has any bay leaves in it. Name refers to a body of water, not the leaves.

Ladeback69 · April 2015

Wikipedia says that Bay leaves are in Old Bay. See here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bay_Seasoning

jtcBoynton · April 2015

Old Bay contains: CELERY SALT (SALT, CELERY SEED), SPICES (INCLUDING RED PEPPER AND BLACK PEPPER) AND PAPRIKA.

Spices is of course generic and covers a lot. They claim 18 spices make up the mix. So accounting for the four named, that leaves 14 additional labeled as "spices". The listing in Wikipedia cites a source that does not actually list the spices that are in the Wikipedia article. I don't doubt that bay leaves may be one of the unnamed spices. Last I heard it was still "top secret".

Skiddymarker · April 2015

The case where, depending on your perspective, everyone is right! Old Bay Seasoning probably has ground bay leaves in it under the “spices” banner - most pre-mixed seasoning do. The package I have simply lists spices.
The name was after Chesapeake Bay I think.

Fred19Flintstone · April 2015

I remember reading somewhere that bay leaves were in it. Whether it's true or not I'm unsure. I busted out the Walter White meme because it's fun.

Botch · April 2015

I always believed "herbs" were leaves of aromatic plants, while "spices" were anything else (seeds, nuts, roots, tubers, bark) but that's getting really fussy (which I'm good at).
I definitely have never been able to bend a bay leave over without it shattering, so that's probably my problem.

jtcBoynton · April 2015

@Botch .. I agree with your distinction of spice - herb. However, for food labeling purposes (in the US) they are included together:

(2) The term spice means any aromatic vegetable substance in the whole, broken, or ground form, except for those substances which have been traditionally regarded as foods, such as onions, garlic and celery; whose significant function in food is seasoning rather than nutritional; that is true to name; and from which no portion of any volatile oil or other flavoring principle has been removed. Spices include the spices listed in 182.10 and part 184 of this chapter, such as the following:

Allspice, Anise, Basil, Bay leaves, Caraway seed, Cardamon, Celery seed, Chervil, Cinnamon, Cloves, Coriander, Cumin seed, Dill seed, Fennel seed, Fenugreek, Ginger, Horseradish, Mace, Marjoram, Mustard flour, Nutmeg, Oregano, Paprika, Parsley, Pepper, black; Pepper, white; Pepper, red; Rosemary, Saffron, Sage, Savory, Star aniseed, Tarragon, Thyme, Turmeric.

Paprika, turmeric, and saffron or other spices which are also colors, shall be declared as "spice and coloring" unless declared by their common or usual name.

Zmokin · April 2015

I have seen lots of recipes that call for bay leaves, including spaghetti sauce.
I have used up to 4 dried leaves and never was sure what the impact was.
I then planted a bay leaf plant in my backyard. I used 4 leaves in a few recipes and decided I didn't like the flavor that strong. I have since cut back to using just one fresh leaf in a recipe if it calls for multiple bay leaves. If you use bay leaves, my understanding is you cook/simmer with them in the sauce and when done, you find them,remove them, and throw them away as they are never soft enough to consider them consumable. For the person complaining about them shattering, don't bend them. Just let them stay whole and then remove them and throw them out before serving dinner (or before using the sauce in something like a lasagne or casserole).

RRP · April 2015

Once again this forum has educated me. Thanks!

CtTOPGUN · April 2015

Spread the stale old leaves in the bottom of cabinets to keep ants away!

Roadpuke0 · April 2015

RRP said:

fishlessman said:

used to think the same til i bought a bay laurel in a pot and picked the leaves fresh for use. easy to grow, my plant started as a stick with 6 leaves, theres probably 1500 leaves now. huge difference fresh verse dried

With your cold climate I assume yours is an indoor plant - right? What all do you use your fresh leafs in that you need that many handy to grab? I can only think of one recipe - a French chicken dish that I use any bay leafs in. Enlighten me, please!

RRP,
i use like most peopl but enjoy giving them to my guest and family. I think there a big difference between the fresh or ones I dry than the store.

Botch · December 2018

<B-U-M-P!!>

Sorry about bumping my old thread, but I learned something today!
Yesterday, picking up stuff for my pressure-cooker beef stew (was supposed to be in the single digits this morning, good day to forego the Egg), while picking out some cremini mushrooms I scanned through the fresh herbs (that come in those Pacific Ocean-bound plastic trays) and noticed, fresh bay leaves! Don't know how long they've been there but not too long I don't think, so I picked up a package.
Pre-cooked the required ingredients, threw them in the pressure cooker, and added 3 fresh bay leaves (more than a recipe this size would call for, but I wanted to boost it). Wow! I could smell the bay in just the 25 minutes of cooking, and the stew was quite different-tasting. Apparently even the "fresh" dried leaves I'd been buying were "dead".
After reading thru this thread again, I also realized that I had tried soaking the leaves in water, oil, and alcohol, couldn't taste any of them, but I left out heat. Tomorrow morning (after the smell subsides) (from the stew, smart guy!) I'm going to try making a "tea" out of the dried leaves, as mentioned above, and then another tea with a couple of the fresh leaves.
I'm also anxious to cook up my italian red sauce with some of these fresh leaves, see what happens there. I guess, along with parsley, bay needs to be bought fresh.

Bay leaves

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